Just Eat Gilligan: scope and YMMV?

ATT pointed out the description for Just Eat Gilligan states it's when "one person is so repeatedly and hopelessly incompetent that even the audience takes notice. If one character (or some other factor) is the main reason for every failure, why does the rest of the cast not account for that? Why do the rest of the castaways keep Gilligan around?"

While this applies to the Trope Namer, the current use of JEG is any time there is a seemingly obvious solution that they don't use/consider because it would end the story. It seems like Trope Decay where the definition broadened over time from not considering removing liability characters to not considering any solution obvious to audiences.

I support the current broader use as the original is redundant with The Millstone. Any arguments it should be limited to the original definition?

I've also seen it used for villains ignoring ways to easily win, which seems misuse as JEG is ignoring things that could resolve the conflict while villain examples cause and would escalate the conflict. Such seem better fits for Villain Ball, Bond Villain Stupidity, and Complexity Addiction.

Also, JEG seems like it should be YMMV as it is almost always about audiences noticing possible solution rather than anything intended by the work (most self-aware non in-universe examples fit other tropes; Ignored Expert, "Could Have Avoided This!" Plot, Stating the Simple Solution, Simple Solution Won't Work) and are inherently used as complaints.

Thoughts about these?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16569657320A27066000&page=1

Previous thread about this trope.

I will say that I think it needs to be taken to TRS, due to having myriad issues.

As I noted in that thread, the examples actually seem to have the point of the trope better than the description, which seems to have been iteratively edited to hew closer to the Trope Namer than it originally was.

I wonder if the broadened use might be redundant with Idiot Plot, which is basically “everyone in the story is too much of an idiot to try the one simple solution”.

Idiot Plot was decided to disallow examples because the threshold for idiocy was too subjective even for YMMV. But before that I believe it was deemed it needed more than one idiocy/idiot.

JEG I belive doesn't/didn't count on it's own as it was a single technically a single idiocy (one thing the characters fail to consider), which also kept it objective enough to count.

That's still a good point (does the one drawn out idiocy count as multiple acts/idiots?) that should still be brought up when taking to TRS.

Meanwhile, do we want to remove/fix the description under the JEG page saying it only applies to characters they fail to consider removing? Or wait until TRS?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 22nd 2024 at 8:12:49 AM

Might be best to wait for TRS to avoid accusations of circumventing it.

Redirects of Just Eat Gilligan are Idiot Premise (suggesting overlap with Idiot Plot) and Just Eat the MacGuffin (the use of any ignored solution not just removing character).

Here's the two non-archived examples of Just Eat the MacGuffin:

• Characters.Fate Extella The Umbral Star: On Tamamo's route, after successfully stealing and bonding with Nero's regalia, her dragon side takes over and she eats it because it's so shiny. Doing so ends up fully transforming her into Corroded Elizabeth once the power goes out of control inside of her. Literally eating as opposed to this trope.
• Characters.Sonic Boom Team Sonic And Friends: After Lyric is tied into a knot, Knuckles rips out his control unit and throws it away, causing Lyric's army of Sentinels to power down. None of them counted on Eggman finding it, however. Aversion as they did take the obvious fix.

Both are misuse under either definition. I intend to cut them as they wouldn't count for the JEG wick check (rounds up to 50 regardless if counted) and would streamline that process. Any objections or do we want to keep them for/until the TRS?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 23rd 2024 at 1:54:18 AM

Updates:

• It turns out the original description was about ignoring solutions not just characters like current use, and the parts suggesting it was about characters was added afterwards. So it seems to be suffering Trope-Namer Syndrome.
• Created Just Eat Gilligan Wick Check. Anyone who wants to add to it is more than welcome.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 23rd 2024 at 1:55:23 AM