Killers of the Flower Moon (2023)

Martin Scorsese's upcoming^* Already screened at Cannes, with wide release coming this October. film on a string of murders following the discovery of oil on Osage Nation land in the 1920s, featuring his sixth collab with Leonardo DiCaprio and his tenth with Robert De Niro.

I don't really know anything about the historical background, but Scorsese worked closely with the Osage Nation to produce the film, and the cast and crew's calibre makes it a likely favourite for the next award season:

Edited by eagleoftheninth on Jul 24th 2023 at 2:25:37 AM

Saw that trailer and it definitely looks like a quality film. Also, there looks to definitely be impressive themes present based on what the trailer presents too.

Yeah, this is one I'm quite excited about, as they don't seem to be shying away from the brutal true history about the Osage Reign of Terror.

Insert joke about Leo being unbelievable for being in a relationship with a woman in her 30s here.

I too am excited for this

I know they had This Boy's Life together as well—haven't seen it, but to see DiCaprio and De Niro share the screen together—and in a Scorsese movie at that too—is REALLY gonna be something.

Makes me think of when I was reading the short story The Man without a Country for a Political Issues class I took back in Fall 2012 (third year, first semester). I imagined it had DiCaprio and De Niro starring in it and that it was directed by Scorsese. Almost feels like wish-fulfillment now.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 17th 2023 at 9:48:52 AM

On the one hand, it looks like its a fantastic drama made with the involvement of the affected peoples about a terrible act inflicted upon them which generally does not get taught to people but whose story deserves to be told. Plus it's Scorcese, so you know it's going to be good.

On the other hand, it looks like another movie where, instead of being about a person from that culture, it's instead about a white guy who is part of the imperialist force oppressing them, but who falls in love with one of the oppressed people and thus decides he wants to fight against the other white guys oppressing them on their behalf.

Which is a bit... old fashioned, let's say.

Except that's not what happens.

Mollie Burkhart was poisoned and divorced Ernest Burkhart, who was then arrested and turned over evidence relating to William Hale's actions. He was sentenced to life in prison for his role in Hale's plot.

The film isn't going to go the route of a white savior because there is no white savior in the first place. Given Scorsese's usual tropes, Burkhart is most likely not going to be given sympathy for his deeds.

Edited by Diana1969 on Sep 17th 2023 at 12:24:16 PM

...You probably shouldn't put massive, unmarked spoilers like that.

Especially just to correct someone who is working off of limited information.

(I understand this is a matter of historical fact, but as should be abundantly obvious, most people know absolutely nothing about the true events behind this movie).

Edited by ArthurEld on Sep 17th 2023 at 10:18:26 AM

I question why known historical fact should be spoiler tagged, but I've gone ahead and done it anyways.

Going by that history, accuracy to the historical record doesn't really affect whether or not its rife to be an example of what I'm talking. If it's the story of how one of the people involved in the plot gets guilty after falling in love and turns themselves in, accepting the consequences, then that's still a story more about white people feeling guilty than the native population themselves.

Going by the way its marketed, that does definitely look like the kind of story its being sold as.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 17th 2023 at 10:34:06 AM

I just said why, and it should be obvious anyway.

This is not a historical fact along the lines of me going into the thread for Napoleon and saying "I wonder if they'll end with his defeat at Waterloo or the Battle of Nations?"

This is an obscure event of American history with the most famous telling of it being this very movie that is about to come out.

It'd be like going into the Oppenheimer thread (before the movie came out) and spoilering the plotline of Florence Pugh's character, something that is very unlikely to be known by Joe Q moviegoer.

Even showing some sympathy to the character will likely be offset by an emphasis on them being a piece of shit. That's one of Scorsese's trademarks: character studies of assholes.

The real life Burkhart wound up downplaying his role in the Osage murders and did other bad shit after he was paroled, including robbing his sister-in-law. The guy sucked. Even if he's given good traits, it feels perfectly Scorsese to emphasize how he was ultimately a bastard. I can't picture Scorsese giving him full sympathy. This is a man who married an Osage woman so he could kill her and her family and make off with their money.

Edited by Diana1969 on Sep 17th 2023 at 12:44:46 PM

This is less an obsversation of sympathy than my noticing who was chosen to be the protagonist of the film and who wasn't. Even if the protagonist turns out to be a complete scumbag, it's still coming off as specifically wanting to focus on the story of that scumbag over anyone else.

Basically, I'm worried this is going to end up being another film that more about the scumbag's guilt than it is about the people affected by the scumbag's actions, which is a constant thing in movies about Native Americans.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 17th 2023 at 10:53:12 AM

I get the feeling that whatever guilt said scumbag winds up displaying will be self-serving and ultimately disingenuous. A "too little too late" deal that comes down hard on him.

Goodfellas didn't take the route of Henry realizing how bad an idea becoming a mobster was and instead has him get out because he screwed up too many times and had to turn everyone in to avoid getting killed. By the end of the day, he hated he had to make a choice between surviving and abandoning that life or dying in it.

With The Departed, you saw how unhappy Colin became living the lie about being a good cop and was trapped forever in a reality that could and would never be, to the point that he was not opposed to the idea of dying when Dignam showed up to kill him in the end. Being murdered was a Mercy Kill because the other option was living in anguish and misery—and even guilt—for what could've been years and years instead.

With Cape Fear 1991, Bowden was between a rock and a hard place: Cady was a 100% unapologetic serial rapist when he got locked up and then turned into something way worse when he got out. While Cady was a hypocrite for saying Bowden burying the report about the victim being promiscuous led to his wanting revenge, the idea is that one simple illegal act that was arguably the right moral decision was a big catalyst for the horror that comes as a result.

Scorsese does stuff like this all the time. He represents an ugly truth within another ugly truth and with this movie and whether or not to be complicit or against racism and for what reason exactly, I expect the same thing. Rock and a hard place as I said before.

The movie's presenting him as either seeing horror he's been complicit in and either responding out of guilt or out of preservation—and in doing so either way costing him his family on both sides. In most of Scorsese's movies as I said, regardless of the character's actions and for what reasons, there's consequences and they have to face it in some way or another.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 18th 2023 at 8:59:13 AM

Curious about Deniro as William Hale. I think this is his first pure villain role (hes sllag played Anti-Villain's) since ironically cape Fear way back in the 90's.

Is there a second trailer to this?

Edited by Dictionaryman616 on Sep 19th 2023 at 2:39:16 PM

I can think of one other villain role he's had, but it would spoil a twist. An incredibly dumb twist, but still.

At least going by the trailer, De Niro is really disappearing into the role. The voice in particular is very convincing.

Who is it ?

The only other I know him as is Louis Cyphre in Angelheart. And its not some surprise he's evil.

Re: protagonist: it, uh, coulda been worse, Leo claims that the first draft was from the FBI agent's POV. [1]

Well they definitely made the right call there.

You look at something like Boardwalk Empire and how it thrived so impressively on building itself around a mobster who while not a totally hateful person made a lot of bad personal life choices—as a result of gaining success after a rough childhood too—and that the like were also given as much focus and development too, to make the main character the unambiguous good guy wouldn't have been the right decision with this story. Nucky Thompson and many of the others in that show are deeply flawed characters and regardless of who you root for and why, there's so much offered in their arcs of doing what they can to either profit and stay alive as well as who they each do it to as well. Heck, even the two FBI agents in the show that featured prominently and were against them resorted to morally shady and criminal actions to do so as well.

To have the supposed White lead here probably end up on the wrong side of things—to the point that even when he does the right thing it's either for selfish reasons or the damage is done, is way more appropriate. Much like Wolf of Wall Street and other Scorsese movies (regardless of whether or not DiCaprio appears), pretty much everything will be lost and consequences will have to be wrought.

@mir Oh I thought you meant Fearless Leader of course.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 19th 2023 at 2:15:12 AM

In Hide and Seek, the villain turns out to be De Niro's split personality.

I'm hoping De Niro gives us another memorable and effective villain here too.

Okay so, saw the movie today. Gonna put my fully thoughts in spoiler tags but in short...it's a soulcrushing, painful drama and nothing feels too long or too bloated (despite what I've seen some people say.

There are no winners in this movie. People are brought to court and thrown in prison, but not all of them. The doctors who poisoned and mistreated several Osage were never brought to justice. Ernest Burkhart was paroled, his Uncle Hale let out early on good behavior, and Byron Burkhart never jailed at all. There are no white saviors here. The FBI come in seemingly to put a stop to things and save the day, except...they don't. And that's the point. The justice system failed and justice was never truly carried out. The film's ending really drives the point across. It ends with a radio play of the murders, sponsored by the FBI, with ridiculous voices and sound effects that emphasize how these actions became a mere curio and footnote, how people got away with theft and murder, and even Scorsese himself comes out to read Molly's obituary and make the point as blunt as possible: these events were forgotten with no justice served beyond the bare minimum for only a couple people, and they still carry the pain of these events to this day.

There's no sympathy to Ernest Burkhart. Yes, he begins to regret his actions, but even to the very end of the movie, he is damned. There's this scene where, after he finally testifies against Hale, he goes on about how he feels like his soul has been cleansed, and yet he still lies to his fucking wife about poisoning her. He's a scumbag to the very end. A moron, an idiot, a greedy twit, and a lowlife fool used as a tool by his uncle and the people around him while also desiring a piece of the pie for himself. He's an overgrown child, and that's not really an exaggeration...Hale paddles him in one scene, for gods sake.

Overall, it's a movie about rot. Whites killing Osage for money, terorizing the community and acting as parasites for profit, and even after all the trials and tribulations to bring people in to serve justice...it's not enough. Scorsese doesn't hold back. Our main protagonist is a selfish, racist fool, his uncle is a sadistic bastard played with absolute sickening evil by De Niro, and everything else is just...fucking hell.

There's even several references to the Tulsa race massacre from roughly that same time period, which undersells the point about how this is part of a broader ordeal. This is Scorsese pointing his finger at the overarching system that is institutionalized white supremacy and showing one microcosm of its manifestation, while reminding us that it's only one part of a broader issue. An issue that is still part of our country to this day.

It's a brilliant movie. Painful and horrifying and doesn't waste a single minute of its time. I'd heavily recommend watching it.

How much of an endurance test is it to watch? That’s the one thing keeping me from going and I’d like to go tomorrow.