Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Cut Zouken.
Cut Zouken
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Gotta love last-minute disqualifiers for an otherwise easy keeper.
What about his anime film incarnation? Is he sufficiently different?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Okay so....RWBY. This is a thing that's gotten discussed a lot on discord and it was decided this should probably get another look.
Cinder Fall is a sadistic monster who demolishes the standard, in both grandiose and personal crimes. That being said, there are 2 issues...one more objective then the other.
After killing her mentor, in her past? She looks to the moon and is shown to start crying a single tear. I can see debate or interpretation like, her just being emotional after gaining her freedom(Though I shall point out she didn't do this after killing the madame) but it's still a really notable moment.
I think the far bigger thing, is that her past is brutal and it's made clear to have a huge impact on her, even moreso then some cuts I've seen IMO. She came from an abusive orphanage before being sent to a sadistic Atlas elite who would force her to work endlessly, with us getting the accompanying song. In addition to all the emotional abuse and not feeding her, the madame would torture her with a shock collar, being forced to say 'Without you I am nothing', this all started when she was Atleast 10 years old and went on for years.
And again, it's made very clear her past affects her and...is not really in her past either. The opening shot of the volume is her flashing back to her time at the orphanage, and the entire framing device of us seeing her past is her reliving it in a nightmare. And she flashes back again to the Madame shocking her when Salem is torturing her. And she still uses the 'without you I am nothing' phrase. And yeah, it's made clear she's still being abused by Salem in the present, with Salem just being smarter then the madame. We get the blatant narrative parralel with Cinder flashing back to being tortured by the madame while Salem is torturing her.
The 2 main arguments for keeping her was Watts calling out her FE and the fact her awful acts in the finale and the fact she's an abuser herself eclipse it. For the former...even aside from the fact, Watts only calls her out for being lazy not anything with the morality of her actions? All Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse means is that it's called out that a tragic past does not justify their actions, it can still be shown to impact them in the present. In this very show, Salem is called out by Yang that something bad happening to her years ago did not justify all the death she's caused, and I would say Salem's past is still given the pathos to be mitigating.
As for the latter...well, I don't think 'is really bad' alone ends a mitigating quality. We've had plenty of cases of characters who are nightmarishly awful but are still shown to be warped by their past, such as Edward Nashton, Homelander, Junior...She's awful, I won't deny that, but things can co-exist. She can be a monster whose past justifies nothing, and far too impacted by her tragic past to count for this trope.
So that's it, to summarize. She's dreadful and I'm not as opposed to her keeping as I was back in 2021(I was sort of losing my mind that year) but I still don't think she keeps. And after discussing it with people elsewhere, felt comfortable making this post.
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 1st 2024 at 12:38:52 PM
The First man
Yes, cut Cinder. We assumed she was over her past and her mentor's death but there's nothing to confirm it and burden of proof wasn't properly allocated. Nothing shows she's really not affected by what happened to her and she could well have a loved one in a sense. There's too much questionable for her to stay on unless this gets refuted later on.
Cut Cinder Fall
Woagh
The Moron
Yeah, I’ve come around to this - cut Cinder
Same here, I was for keeping her but your right, she never really subverts feeling sad for killing Rhodes, so cut her
Anyone have images of Adam to replace the page pic?
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Showtime!
Going to reiterate from 2021— cut Cinder
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Cut Zouken as well.
The First man
Cut Cinder.
5 or 6 characters that we all thought were certified CM figureheads cut within a single year huh.
Edited by Mr-ex777 on Feb 2nd 2024 at 3:33:54 AM
Jogo
Cut Cinder
"Stand proud, Sukuna, you are strong." | He/Him
Did the story say that Cinder is evil because of her past?
Cinder is obsessed with gaining power and its because she used to be powerless during her backstory
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Cut Cinder And Zouken
Edited by umaprasis on Feb 1st 2024 at 11:42:08 AM
Cut Cinder
Cut Zouken and Cinder.
Not the Eye
Cut Cinder
Snip Cinder Fall.
RIP Toriyama
Cut Cinder and Zouken
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Yeah, full support behind being rid of Cinder.
The Salesman’s Stolen Mask
I don’t know much about RWBY, but I’ve always thought that Cinder's backstory does legitimately explain why she is the way she is, so I say cut.
Anyways, I came here because I noticed that on the The Legend of Zelda page, the A Link to the Past manga is listed first for some reason. That manga actually came out after both the Ocarina of Time and Oracle manga, so I’m suggesting that its Ganon be moved down underneath the entries for the Oracle ones. If and when my write-up for the manga version of Demise gets approved, I’d also like to suggest placing it above the Twilight Princess entries.
Edited by Remnant43 on Feb 1st 2024 at 3:12:51 PM
Balls idk
To answer about anime Zouken Master N nope he basically gets the exact same death where pretty much the exact same thing is presented, I think the anime even adds extra scenes of him being distraught over the death of the woman he loved
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Feb 1st 2024 at 12:25:11 PM
You'll find the issue with doing so in this case discussed above.