Doctor Strange: In The Multiverse of Madness

I think it was always going to include Wanda. They definitely weren't going to back down on that after WandaVision was so successful. Brand synergy, yo.

Also, I personally love this movie. I also love WandaVision. I have zero problems with Wanda's characterization in either. It could've been nice to see her turn evil rather than just imply it, but also I don't find it unrealistic and I like having the twist reveal. Maybe it helps that I was miles away from the fan-o-sphere during this movie's leadup and I didn't see it coming. I dunno.

Edited by MurlocAggroB on Jan 19th 2023 at 6:03:41 AM

Yes, as someone who also liked Wandavision I didn't have any problems with her in Multiverse of Madness either. The assumption that people only like one or the other tends to color this thread at times so I pop in every now and again to state otherwise, without being dismissive of the behind-the-stage reasons Multiverse of madness ended up the way it did.

In all honesty, that only makes me like this movie more.

Chiming in as someone who also liked Wanda Vision and Mo M.

Ditto.

I hated what they did to Wanda....but damned if she wasn't good at it.

Like, it was a hell of a thing. I also enjoyed both WandaVision and MOM....wait....was the clue about the plot in the Acronym all along?

I mean, it was always called Multiverse of Madness, and we'd known Wanda was going to be in it for a while as well?

How far back was this planned?

do you think Wanda is actually dead now? I'm personally not convinced until I see a body

Nor should you.

She's dead... until the next time we see her. I figure it depends if anyone pitches a good idea to Feige and if Olsen wants to come back (or is contractually obliged to)

Whether I want to see her come back with this standard of writing is another matter.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jan 26th 2023 at 6:54:29 PM

Oh, hush. Stop projecting.

Also, I'm fairly certain Elizabeth Olsen said she's willing to keep doing MCU stuff.

Sorry, I totally misread what you wrote. I thought you said whether she would want to come back from the quality of writing. My apologies.

Edited by MurlocAggroB on Jan 26th 2023 at 1:08:48 PM

Don't be dick. I am not projecting.

This, yes. Wanda, right now, is Schrodinger's Corpse. She is dead until such a time as she's revealed to be alive.

It's a state that leaves the door open for her to easily return, but that can also function as a final conclusion if she never does. Comics and other long runners use this trick all the time.

Wanda, on a beach, sipping mai tais: "Sure sucks 'being dead' yup"

Quicksilver: "Wait, I'm here too? Did I fake my death? That'd be a dick move of me."

Wanda: "No, I brought you back to life. Sitting alone on limbo beach is boring."

Quicksilver: "I'm having an existential crisis right now."

Wanda: "Just drink until it stops."

Wanda is a glass cannon, so it is likely that a temple collapse could have killed her, if she had not escaped in time.

Going forward, there are admittedly a few ways in which Wanda can be redeemed and viewed as a hero again. The bigger issue will lie in, how they will convince the audience that she deserves to be redeemed? Because Wanda has been a very polarizing character ever since she was introduced way back in Avengers: Age of Ultron, and this movie didn't help with that. WandaVision might've done Wanda a lot of favors because it cared about illustrating her pain and her grief in a nuanced way...but this movie also effectively rendered the events of that show almost completely irrelevant. So really, does she get a story where she's able to go through the beats of a redemption story (she acknowledges her mistakes, acknowledges that she hurt people, and makes amends), or is it simpler to just bypass that entirely (and let's just have own her mistakes; something bad happens, Wanda comes along, fixes it and does something good with no explanations and no justifications)?

It's also not really helped that her amount of agency in this movie is so unclear.

The obvious answer is that they won't. Someone will just find her hiding out somewhere. Maybe reference her status quo following the Decimation, when Hawkeye found Wanda living in a remote village on Mount Wundagore with her memory wiped out.

I'd expect the tone of her return isn't going to be, "Can the Scarlet Witch atone for her crimes?" It's going to be, "Fuck yeah, the Scarlet Witch is back in action, baby! Big triumphant return moment!" The most I'd expect is for Wanda to be sad and wallow in self-hatred for a little bit, but then another character gives her a pep talk, giving her the motivation to save the day at the eleventh hour.

Find Wanda. Wanda doesn't want to help because she hates herself. Big pep talk about how she's the only one who can save us. Heroes face darkest moment in the third act confrontation. Wanda arrives, having found the strength to believe in herself, and kicks the bad guy's ass. Audience cheers. Cash paycheck.

They'll probably treat her behavior in Multiverse of Madness as extenuating circumstances. It'll get a brief mention during the pep talk scene, but then the pep talk giver will point out that the Darkhold made her do it so she's about as morally culpable for her actions as Bucky is for the Winter Soldier.

Then by the end of the movie, the matter will be considered resolved. Any further mention of the subject will be met with, "Um, they already addressed that in xyz film."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 5th 2023 at 5:22:42 AM

Wanda: C'thon made me do it.

She'll probably be brought back in Vision Quest if that's a real thing. Hopefully they have time to explore her character more in the D+ format.

EDIT: Whoops, meant this for the MCU thread.

Edited by Galadriel on Feb 8th 2023 at 5:18:04 AM

Yeah, Wanda needs another movie or show for herself for her redemption to feel earned. After all, her descent into darkness didn't feel earned because it was all done offscreen.

Whatever the case, redemption is complicated but possible. Her realizing her mistakes and "sacrificing herself" at the end to destroy the Darkhold definitely plants the seed for a future redemption since she has literally zero reason to come back as a villain now. It might take good writing and some time. She will probably be despised by a lot of people, have to struggle with her "prophecy", and even screw up from time to time, but that's how character development is supposed to work, and given enough development and time, it is completely possible to see her eventually be a hero again.

As it were, it seems to me that the things necessary for Wanda to be redeemed and become a hero again are as follows:

1. The story has to make it clear that she wants to atone and make amends for what she has done, and let her take the necessary steps to accomplish that. Obviously, I wouldn't expect everyone to forgive Wanda (which does kinda tie in with the whole question of "Just how much do the general public know about the events that happen in each movie or show?"). There will always people who dislike her, but it just really matters that she makes the effort to do better.

2. Flesh out how the Darkhold functions and how it corrupts its user (that's admittedly going to be Agatha: Coven of Chaos' job)

3. Give Wanda something to live for. Let her find out that there are people out there who are willing to love her and offer her a second chance, like the new Vision, or Clint, or Sam, or Bucky.

Edited by dmcreif on Feb 9th 2023 at 3:40:09 PM

Whatever the case, this "Wanda gets redeemed and gets to be a hero again" story needs to make it very clear that redemption and forgiveness are two separate things. Wanda doesn't need forgiveness to achieve redemption. And honestly, this redemption story should not punish her or make her suffer in order to "earn" that redemption. Having her acknowledge what she's done, take responsibility for her actions, while also showing regret and disgust over what she did and how she did it, and proving that she has a good heart and at her core she will always choose to be good, should suffice.

Taking responsibility for your actions also involves accepting any (reasonable) punishment the justice system deems necessary for your crimes and working through that system.

Given the crimp this puts on story options I can only think of one character Faith on Angel that's actually done this. (and even then only until the show wanted to use her again)

In retrospect Wanda surrendering and being arrested by Fair Cop Rambeau or or Jimmy Woo rather than the corrupt Haywood would have been the ideal end to WandaVision. She could easily have been called into action as Thunderbolt or released for superhero work or whatever in a future installment.

There is precedent in the MCU with Bucky and with Blonsky, both of them having to clear legal checkpoints before they were allowed to go about on their own.

I haven't seen MOM yet myself but I don't like that direction for Wanda's character. And yeah, I would have preferred Wanda turning herself in. Or conversely, have her more clearly tell Monica, "I'll kill you all if you try to stop me," so it wouldn't seem like Monica let her go.

Regarding Bucky, I had (IMO) a good idea that post-Endgame, he'd be allowed to walk around freely based on having a Wakandan passport and some kind of b.s. official position that gave him diplomatic immunity. I was partly inspired by hearing about some Batman comic where the Joker had protection from Iran Qurac. Not that Bucky is at all otherwise comparable to the Joker...

And I thought it would make for some good banter between Sam and Bucky to have Bucky be a Wakandan citizen.

If Wanda turned herself in at the end of WV, then Strange could have gotten her released in MOM before realizing she was the one manipulating everything.

It's interesting, because it wouldn't take that much work to make that ending land? I mean, you can just move things around a little bit, give Monica her ridiculous sacrifice line, but have it more explicitly be what I think it's intended to be, handholding for the wounded and incredibly dangerous Wanda.

And have Wanda notice that and explicitly call it out. One minute effort:

"You don't have to try to manipulate me, Agent. I'm in control now."

"But you could lose it again."

"Yes, and I most likely would if someone were to try to lock me in another box. I've done enough of that." Maybe with a few little flickers of crimson power.

"Then where are you going to go?"

"Somewhere I can learn. And heal. And somewhere I'm not telling you, agent. Have a nice long life, far away from me."