Not Thriving: Small Start Big Finish

Small Start, Big Finish has been around for about a decade, and yet it only has 9 wicks. There's more than 9 on-page examples, but a majority are ZCE. It also uses the depreciated "Type Labels" format, and seems to combine multiple ideas into one. It is, to put it mildly, a mess.

Currently, I have a draft called "Gaining Confidence" Song I realized is very much covered by SSBF- at least, by some of the internal subtropes within SSBF. I don't want to toot my own horn here but my draft is already in pretty solid shape and could help us figure out what direction to go in. I'd be okay with merging my draft into SSBF somehow, or to launch it as a subtrope, or maybe to split Small Start, Big Finish's variants and have this be one of them. I just couldn't launch it knowing that SSBF existed and was in such poor condition.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 30th 2020 at 5:36:43 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Since a bit of the backlog cleared up, and this can be a quick thread, opened.

I'm good with merging. I can go either way regarding the direction of the merge.

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Cut and merge with the draft.

back lol

Merge in which way; into Gaining Confidence Song, or merge Gaining Confidence Song into SSBF?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Merge the trope into GCS.

Edited by jandn2014 on Nov 6th 2020 at 5:56:40 AM

back lol

I say we keep the page and make "Gaining Confidence" Song a subtrope, since the page has many examples that don't fit the concept. There are also other songs that start relatively soft and end relatively loud that aren't on the page.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Nov 6th 2020 at 3:00:21 AM

SSBF would need serious page-cleanup then since if we went by work-page standards it'd be cut for lacking context.

I'm not opposed to this idea btw because I do think GCS is a bit too narrow to really take over as the new SSBF, I'm just pointing out what we'd have to do if we keep them separate.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 6th 2020 at 6:01:17 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

That doesn't sound too hard, considering basically all we'd have to do is listen to songs.

And remove the type-label format.

But yeah. My personal take is that I agree with keeping GCS separate, mostly because it's a more specific concept and can easily exist as a sub-trope.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 6th 2020 at 6:05:15 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'd be okay with yarding Small Start, Big Finish's type labels.

Rock'n'roll never dies!

Yeah, I think the type labels could be yarded just in case the idea of dividing the trope further ever comes up again.

I wouldn't mind yarding.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I mentioned this in the TLP draft: GCF does not cover cases where the character is already confident and it's the instrumentation that has a small start, big finish, like the singer sings louder and/or the accompaniment gets bigger eg. "Maybe this Time". That can be yarded.

Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 6th 2020 at 12:34:26 PM

We're talking about yarding the type labels, not Small Start, Big Finish itself.

Well...the type labels are the trope. What would SSBF be if those are put in the yard? What would be left?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yes. The way I read it GCS is already type 1 and 2 of SSBF. Not sure about Type 3 (is it describing a hidden Beautiful Singing Voice? I truly hate example as a thesis), and I'm talking about Type 4 in my previous post.

Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 6th 2020 at 12:46:06 PM

I thought the idea was that we would get rid of the type labels and just put all the examples that don't fit under "Gaining Confidence Song" into one, united trope, but yard the labels in case the idea of splitting Small Start, Big Finish ever comes up again.

I mean, the current trope is almost entirely non-existent as is since it's so under-developed. It'd be easier to yard and split in TLP from scratch than to have to return to this discussion in, say, a year or so if someone wants to take one of the yard ideas.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

It's honestly so small that I'd rather just cut. Type 4 is really the only one worth yarding.

Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 6th 2020 at 12:45:48 PM

Well, I don't think yarding the trope itself is necessary because this is about individual songs, rather than works as a whole, meaning that it's a lot easier to add context.

It's not that small, and I have some ideas for expansion.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Nov 6th 2020 at 4:46:49 AM

The idea behind yarding isn't about context but about turning it into a trope of its own, as SSBF just sort of combines multiple ideas into one and 2 of the 4 labels are already covered by GCS, which would take a good chunk of the examples away as a subtrope. If we yard that'll go hand-in-hand with cutting the trope to remake it with a more narrow focus. Honestly we'd have to rewrite it from scratch anyway...

But if we do end up rewriting the page I'm fine with that, too. It's just that yarding and fixing the page seem to be mutually exclusive ideas.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 6th 2020 at 7:48:54 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I like to lump but if we're going to split it down the line anyway, now is a good time to do it since it's so small. We have to discuss if whether "Alice is unconfident and finds her own during her performance" is close enough to "Alice's song starts out soft but then she sings louder and the instrumentation gets more bombastic" to stay under the same trope.

I find those too disparate. The first is more of a characterization thing (hence why I am in favor of merging 1 and 2 with "Gaining Confidence" Song) while the latter is a musical score thing. They seem more like sister tropes (in that the first will often involve an instrumentation in the style of the second) than the same trope.

Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 6th 2020 at 12:53:12 PM

Yeah. My idea for GCS is about the song showing the character's changing mental state; it's less about the music itself and more about what the music is representing and how it's portrayed.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Here's something with the same song that I think can visualize the two concepts:

• Maybe this Time, Schitt's Creek: The character is shy and forced in the role. Notice how her voice wavers a lot in the beginning but then she ends strong. (I wish I could find a video that also showed her nervous facial expressions!) It is less about the song itself and more about how she gets more confident throughout the song. This is "Gaining Confidence" Song and what I think Types 1 and 2 want to be.
• Maybe this Time, Kristin Chenoweth (closer to how it's traditionally performed): The song starts soft because she's contemplating about her relationship, not because she's not confident. This illustrates the second concept, steadily increasing instrumentation ("big finish").

In addition, a gaining confidence song doesn't need to have a big finish accompaniment either. It could just be some guy on a guitar playing "Wonderwall" and starting out nervous. I really don't think Type 1 and 2 are the same as Type 4.

Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 6th 2020 at 1:09:17 PM

Those two look like they go together to me.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.