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Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 10:55:20 AM
Neptunia Ichiban
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think the "posts made pre-mod" part was about crazysamaritan
I know. I mean Synchro's "glass houses" bit
I seem to have missed some context here. Is the first point not about Fighteer?
The first official point in trying to wrap up the whole thing about Fighteer, is not about Fighteer?
eta: When I said "vague and convincing" well if it's not clear who the post is even about then I'd call that evidence.
Edited by dcutter2 on Dec 26th 2022 at 6:09:47 PM
Figure of Hourai
If you spend long enough on computers, I don't know how true that is; a lot of the minutiae of navigating is just something you do unconsciously when wanting to accomplish something else. Of course, you still have plenty of time to think about your post and go back and edit it to try and clarify a comment, so the point still stands, but the act of moving and clicking on buttons to actually do the posting... not so much.
Avatar Source
Fighteer is, at the very least, taking a period of self-reflection. My issue lies in the completely thoughtless "final statement" the mods are putting up as a catch-all to every issue we've discussed in the last, oh, 50 pages.
That one was about Crazysamaritan and remarks he made in the decision to cut Stonetoss.
That post is here.
Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 26th 2022 at 1:11:30 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I think the "posts made pre-mod" part was about crazysamaritanEdited by sgamer82 on Dec 26th 2022 at 10:12:46 AM
This isn't about our behavior, it's about Fighteer's and, more than that, the mod team's.
This is deflection. If the response to numerous criticisms against Fighteer being a harmful and toxic presence is to say "No u", then that is a horrific failure on the part of moderation.
Let the behavior of any individual user here be dealt with if it goes too far, but don't hang it over our heads to silence our honest criticisms.
Fighteer's entire post was one big deflection. "I have to be tough so others don't have to! All the bad guys are against me! Everyone is just as guilty as I am! My only issue is I assume too much bad faith!"
Like I said, if this came up in Edit Banned, that person'd get a thorough talking to. At least.
A Self-inflicted Disaster
A procrastination in of itself
I’m in full agreement with the displeasure people are voicing here, we’ve hit the absurd point where the most tangible punishment placed onto Fighteer for his actions is the one he himself has imposed. I know he’s generally been the harsher one of the mod team, but that’s taking it to a comical extent.
I’m in agreement that a 2-4 people here are throwing stones from glass houses, but I fail to see why that invalidates the points made by dozens of posters. Likewise, bringing up past behaviour of posters here seems to be exactly what the team are upset about people doing in relation to Fighteer.
I’m honestly feeling like the mod who has listened the most to the issues raised here might be Fighteer himself, which is so many levels of absurd.
I’d have been reasonably content with
On the Fighteer subject generally we’d also like to note that his behaviour is not uncommon. People posting here have been spoken to and carried out very similar behaviour. While Fighteer has a bigger presence as a mod the rules we have are universal. This doesn’t invalidate the behaviour raised here, but we wanted to make it clear that if we are going to change the tone of the forums then the tone will change for everyone, not just Fighteer.
I’d have found the final paragraph kinda snarky, but understandable nonetheless.
So to make this a question. Mod team, why do you feel your non-punishment approach is more appropriate than what I’ve proposed above?
Edited by Silasw on Dec 26th 2022 at 6:38:44 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
I misspoke when I said the genetic fallacy earlier, the one I was looking for is "Tu quoque" aka the "NO U" defense:
In other words, even if it was true that some of us might act like assholes in our own rights does not give Fighteer a pass of his own. Two wrongs don't make a right, some of us acting up does not mean Fighteer should too.
Especially since the way it was worded comes off as a lazy deflection and insult rather than a real criticism; a good number of the people who've showed up in this thread are folks well-respected by many of the community for their reasonable demeanor who should not have their opinions dismissed because others are not.
Also, the thing is, at least we can be thumped, suspended, or banned, and subsequently made to face the consequences of our actions if we misbehave. Fighteer isn't.
Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 26th 2022 at 1:36:57 PM
If anything, wouldn't a moderator be held to a higher standard, not lower?
Fighteer's vacation was not entirely voluntary- there was enough consensus that he had to take a break that, had he not taken a break voluntarily, it would have been imposed by suspension.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
A procrastination in of itself
Kinda would have helped if you’d opened with that…
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
the problem is twofold:
- You didn't say that from the start and Fighteer said more would be stated by the mod team. It wasn't.
- It feels wholly insufficient to what he did. It's nothing more than a vacation, with vague promises, and given the mod team's reaction is to close ranks and point fingers, there is zero trust, absolutely zero that you will enforce the rules on him after failing to do so for years of abuse to the community.
"Maybe we'll punish him later. But first, he gets a vacation" isn't conducive for any accountability. Especially when Fighteer demonstrated no contrition, still thinks he's right about everything and even phrased it as a needed break for himself. What exactly is the mod team doing here with this? None of these statements have been helpful, there seems to be no coordination and just knee-jerk defensiveness.
"Not entirely" voluntary? So it was partially voluntary and "enough" consensus implies defense of him still in the mod team. So he continues to be shielded despite a mod saying that wasn't "remotely true."
This is nothing more than a slap on the wrist and it feels like it's the bare minimum only done to save face.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 26th 2022 at 10:43:09 AM
R Lee Ermey Looks At YOU
I'm going back and forth on whether to post more or just saying "Heck it, it's not worth it."
I will say it definitely would have been better had you led with the part about the vacation not being entirely voluntary. Because one of the thoughts I had in the original draft of my previous post was "For all the talk about 'I'll abide by whatever the mod team decides', it sure looks from the outside like the mod team didn't decide anything—Fighteer did, and what he decided was 'I'm going to lay low and hope this blows over'".
Related to this, when an ordinary poster gets suspended, before they get unsuspended, they typically have to post something along the lines of "I know what I did wrong and it won't happen again because X, Y, and Z." Two questions:
1. Do you have this assurance from Fighteer?
And 2. are you prepared to actually enforce a suspension (Or any consequences, for that matter) on him if need be if that assurance turns out to be false? Or is it going to take another 30+ page blowup?
Because regarding 1, his last couple posts indicated that he was aware that there is a problem, which is progress, but I'm still worried what he thinks the problem is is not what everyone else perceives as the problem, so we're just going to be back here in a short time.
And on #2, well, past performance is the best indicator of future results. And while I appreciate the mod team as a whole, and think they largely do an excellent job, your collective past performance on "The Fighteer Issue" is, to put it kindly, not great. And at this point, it doesn't matter why—if part of the problem is just that Fighteer hasn't been hollered enough to the mod team wasn't aware of it, well, that's a failure of the mod team to properly put that "No, really, holler if one of us gets out of line" culture into place. I'm willing to give y'all a chance on this front...but I also completely get the skepticism that this time will be any different from the numerous previous times it's come up.
Edited by Emptyeye on Dec 26th 2022 at 10:52:17 AM
A procrastination in of itself
I’d actually disagree with this. It wasn’t much, but my reading is that he did actually acknowledge that he’s projecting his habits from elsewhere on the web onto users here, and that he shouldn’t be doing that.
Both this:
And
Are important acknowledgments of fault to me.
It was wrapped in a lot of defensiveness and that’s not great, but it’s kinda understandable when you’ve just had a couple dozen people dunking on you.
At the moment my biggest hope isn’t that Fighteer will be held to account by the mods if he comes back and is the same, it’s that he will 1: self-reflect in his time away, and that 2: Twitter will break during his time away and that will mean he’s consuming less bad-faith takes elsewhere that he projects onto users here.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
He should be able to do better as a regular user. I'll grant you he admitted to an abuse of power there, but that only goes to show why he shouldn't be trusted after numerous abuses of his position and the code of conduct.
These are just little concessions while he does everything he can do to deflect and avoid fault. He's clearly not sorry, with absolutely no acknowledgment of the harm he caused. See his "You're not immune to bias because of your race/gender/sexuality, nobody is" statement. That's a common tactic.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 26th 2022 at 10:56:11 AM
R Lee Ermey Looks At YOU
I will agree that for everything I said in my last post, the best-case scenario here is "Fighteer returns a truly changed poster, and no further action is necessary. Barring that, if action does turn out to be necessary, I hope it's decisive and spares us another huge collective blowup of frustration." I hope, I truly do, that that's what ends up happening.
I just don't think it's likely. There's just too much history to the contrary to think that that's how it's going to end up. I hope I'm wrong.
Edited by Emptyeye on Dec 26th 2022 at 11:02:35 AM
A procrastination in of itself
I took that to mean that his issue hits everyone he doesn’t just falsely assume bad-faith with minority groups, but does it. To everyone.
As in that nobody is immune to his bias, not that everyone as biases. An assertion of himself as an Equal-Opportunity Offender who Hates Everyone Equally.
Edited by Silasw on Dec 26th 2022 at 7:04:30 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
A Self-inflicted Disaster
While I do think he can come back as a better poster, over the course of the past few days, I have lost faith in him to moderate this site.
"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
@Silas:
But he;s a moderator, and when his first recourse was to accuse me of trauma posting, it feels a little more severe. I'm not saying he can't come back changed. But it should not be as a moderator.
I'll reiterate that I want Fighteer permanently demoted. I do want him to be able to turn over a new leaf and rebuild favor with the community, but he should do so as a regular user.
You know I could accept this logic if it were something far more lowkey, but Crazy was dismissing claims about Holocaust denial, and then his rebuttals were very poor. This isn't like is he is friends with someone who is problematic in some way. He's directly dismissing valid claims of holocaust denial as perceived, which feels really big, no?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid