Wiki and Forum Policy - General Discussion

Gonna drop in here for a second to note a few things.

• On the CM thread, I was asked to intervene. Multiple people hollered and asked for action to be taken on the basis of suspicion of sockpuppetry and the promotion of rape fic. This wasn't even close to a unilateral decision. Some people acted shocked after getting exactly what they asked for. The CM thread has been paranoid of ban evaders for years, and not without reason, so if you're going to point fingers, point them at yourselves.

• We collectively review any situation where PMs are involved, but we have always been clear that what you say in them is subject to moderation, just as any other site activity is. Conspiring to attack, disparage, bully, or otherwise harm someone has resulted in multiple bans over the course of the site's history.

We are intensively discussing this issue among ourselves and I will abide by whatever the rest of the moderators decide. However, this dredging up of past incidents as evidence of whatever people are trying to prove is demeaning to everyone involved. Consider if the shoe were flipped, or however that goes.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 22nd 2022 at 5:33:17 AM

I already acknowledged that my holler, which if I recall, was primarily based on sockpuppetry concerns, may have been disproportionate.

I'm genuinely confused how people pointing out a consistent, long standing bad behaviour is demeaning to those people

With all due respect, if everyone had receipts of me being rude to them as recently as a few days ago and going back as far as multiple years ago, then I'd say the only person that looks demeaned is me, not the people complaining about me acting inappropriately and presenting tangible evidence of what I said. And the reason they bring up these past events is that they represent a pattern of behavior that is still present. This isn't just people digging up your dirty laundry to make you feel bad for no reason.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 22nd 2022 at 7:56:47 AM

That sounds like a threat.

It's a strange take, but I doubt it's a threat; it sounds like he's just asking for people to imagine how they'd feel if they were in his position. Golden Rule stuff.

Which, yeah if it were me I'd be incredibly stressed out, but I'm also not a moderator with decades of attracting controversy (some justified and some not). I'm not wearing the shoe because I haven't hurt people to the point of deserving the shoe.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 5:42:41 AM

Seconded; I do not see the issue with providing evidence relevant to the discussion at hand.

Edited by wisewillow on Dec 22nd 2022 at 2:40:52 AM

This is very emblematic of the problems I have and a huge reason I am not comfortable with you remaining in a position of moderation and authority. People have brought up very legitimate grievances, from rudeness, hostility, bullying, abuse of power, bigotry and more. All with relevance to the conversation. You refer to this as "dredging up past incidents" like your behavior should not be relevant to the conversation.

I don't have to consider if the shoe was flipped, because we've seen it happen in the edit-banned threat. People's history is always taken into account there. You've done it many times when choosing whether to give someone another chance or not.

And here is the issue: You've been informed you've hurt a lot of people and your only response is to say that shouldn't be relevant to the conversation. No taking responsibility, no attempt at contrition, no attempt at even an apology.

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 22nd 2022 at 2:41:41 AM

Seriously? Arguing "no u" and trying to attack the character of people voicing their complaints?

This is the problem here! This is failure to take accountability for several years worth of problems! And when these problems get brought up, it leads to fingerpointing. Zendervai in particular gets hit with that a lot, to where he's strawmanned as a far-left lunatic...and this coming from a moderator who repeatedly talks down to minorities is ridiculous. It comes off as incredibly reactionary.

The user base at large is not being scrutinized here, it is Fighteer's actions that are under scrutiny. Passing the buck is avoiding responsibility.

I'll also note that Fighteer is obscuring the issue. In the CM thread, there were many times we needed mod intervention. There were other times he came in and needlessly escalated situations. It surely needed some surgery done in the end, but there's some serious passing the buck

If "the shoe were flipped", I would deserve it, simple as that. But that's not what's happening right now.

As messy as this has been, surely it's better for there to be documentation of concerning incidents, rather than less verifiable "feelings" without any citation?

I mean, people who felt like they had reason to be concerned were effectively told that they were making things up to justify their feelings and that they had no reason to fear, so they provided evidence. What part of that is “demeaning”?

Cited this one a bunch of times here. Another here.

There's been a lot of documentation from people through a like 30 pages.

Fighteer has a habit of insisting he's the victim, as you've now all seen with his "bringing receipts of me being a dick is demeaning for everyone" powermove.

To comment on that, I feel like a Sandbox/ page specifically to list links to Fighteer's problematic posts would give a better picture and can be used for easier navigation when the discussion gets closer to a conclusion.

Fighteer, if you found a troper had this many complaints against them, you'd be dragging them into EB straight away and having a very serious, protracted conversation with them about their behaviour, at the very least.

Again, this is behaviour that you, Fighteer, would not tolerate from any of us.

Just dropping in to add that I do think that I think Fighteer's behavior has degenerated. I might not have been exposed to the specific things many people here have, but I do often comb through old discussions and there's a notable negative shift I've seen from him.

Whether you argue he was always like that or not, I do think it's fair to say that his behavior has been getting progressively worse for an extended and prolonged period of time.

Again, Fighteer, I acknowledge that you haven't necessarily behaved the exact same way towards me, but one exchange in particular I saw admittedly rubbed me the wrong way, given that certain dual-netizens have been productive contributors.

I acknowledge that some people from certain sites come to TV Tropes and act inappropriately, and if I ever painted that particular userbase with the same brush I apologize, but I eventually came to the conclusion that the issue is less about a "website rivalry", and more about certain people in particular acting entitled.

Look, Fighteer, if the shoe was on the other foot, if someone was able to find this many damning receipts of my old behavior, and this many people pissed off at me, do you know what I would personally do, and what I should do?

I, speaking as myself, as Alley Oop, would apologize and vow to do better in the future. I might try to clear up some more egregious instances of genuine misinterpretation, but otherwise, that many receipts from this many people means I probably deserved the callout and needed that kick in the butt to do better. I should be the one asking for forgiveness, not attacking others for daring to be bothered by my actions when it's clearly a very large part of the userbase.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 22nd 2022 at 6:42:19 AM

Oh Good, Fighteer responded. We'll get another 30 pages from that.

I really don't know what he was thinking there. The thread was just winding down, and now he throws this firebomb in.

I mean, he's entitled to defend himself as much as we're entitled to build the case against him, I guess.

I think people would have been relatively fine with his response if not for his last quip insisting that he is the one being victimized and everyone else is wrong just because they want to prove they aren't making up incidents that didn't happen. "We are discussing this internally and I will abide by whatever is decided" is a perfectly fine response otherwise.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 22nd 2022 at 8:20:18 AM

Of course he is, but he is doing it in a way that is just going to inflame people more, and he seems to be unaware of the impact his own words are having.

If this is a defence, that barb at the end is an ill-considered addition, and one I feel he would not have much patience for were it to come from people in the EB thread.

Edited by Redmess on Dec 22nd 2022 at 12:22:19 PM