Lovecraft Country

Lovecraft Country is an HBO tv series adaptation of the novel of the same name, Lovecraft Country and its first episode aired this week, so opening up a thread to talk about it!

This looks like a very well-done adaptation just from episode 1, the tension was absolutely through the roof in the second half. I actually haven't finished the book which I should probably do now that the TV show's out >>.

I'm digging this, though I'm still very tentative. Episode 1 is for the most part a road trip family drama where the greatest horror is the looming threat of racism, while episode 2 just quickly drifts into complete and utter pulp madness (and really feels like the plot of an entire season crammed into a single episode, down to looking like it's about to end some 3 times).

I'm a bit uncertain how well the show will balance those two out as it goes forward.

Episode 3 is equal parts period racism and a ghost stoty

Episode 3 was pretty cool. I still think episode 1 was kind of the strongest (the sundown sequence is still the most suspenseful moment of the show) but it has settled more into a pace of "it's a full-on pulp show but about the african-american experience in the 1950s".

Parts of it still feel a bit rushed to me compared to the first, but it's chugging along. The main actors are really strong, the atmosphere is great and the soundtrack is amazing.

I admit that I was confused when they moved home and STILL got hit with the horror stuff but the reveal at the end explained it. And I did like the concept of the quasi-framing device where the story was laid out right at the start but then we saw it develop day by day.

Yeah, the show going full pulp has been very enjoyable even if the gore still makes me super squeamish.

Removing Caleb in favor of Christina has easily been the show's biggest strength as adaptation.

The fourth episode was a cool adventure that creates even further mystery to the world, but killing the only indigenous character shown so far within the same episode as their debut is pretty uncomfortable.

Changing the space portal to a time machine is a very intriguing change.

Also Hippolyta taking initiative with trying to figure out what's going on and why they've been covering things up is great, even if I'm scared what's going to happen to her.

I kinda... hated Episode 4. I thought it was the weakest.

What really bothered me was...

Ok, back in episode 1, they had Tic go into the back ally and interrupt a guy (Sammy?) getting oral sex from a man. That kinda bugged me because I hoped they weren't just bringing gay characters in as a one off sex object moment to never be mentioned again. It made me a bit uncomfortable. Either do something with that or why is it there at all?

But come episode 4, it comes up again with their friend that goes to the Museum with them. He reminds Tic of sending him into the back ally while the guy was getting a gay bj... and asks if Tic is into men to which Tic says he's no pansy... and then the friend sindely suggests that Montrose is with how close he is to the security officer that's letting them sneak in.

It just felt... kinda uncomfortable. We have a show that's already using Lovecraft's extreme discrimination to throw the story on it's head and actually deal with minority problems in the mid 1900s... and it feels like we're drawing the line on it's ok for gays to be discriminated against and being props too I guess?

I get what they NEEDED; the writers wanted to cast suspicion onto Montrose since he's lying to them but they used a character who has ZERO context to anything else in the story so they go with... "Yo, bro, maybe your dad's gay (bi). Ain't that suspicious?' to draw us thinking somethings up with him?

Why couldn't Leti have asked the same questions with actual context to the story and we'd be in the same place?

It just felt really out of place to me.

There were a few other issues I had; the fake out of the pages slipping from Leti's pocket in the elevator for 2 extra mins of tension. Or the very lengthy transformation from mummified corpse to living woman... while ALL of the characters just stand, watch, and scream? None of them run or get weapons or anything? I know that the narrative knows she's not a threat and that the characters need to talk to her, but the characters don't know that.

Didn't much care for the music either. A lot of modern tunes where I had like the used of period appropriate music in the previous episodes. I don't remember modern music in the earlier ones, but maybe it just wasn't distracting to me. I know Episode 3 had the gospel choir track ("Take It Back"), but it still had a period appropriate feel and other more actual 50s tunes (Ain't That A Shame). But I just didn't feel like the songs like "Money" or "Get Em" fit here. I thought MAYBE they were using modern music as a comment signature for Christina; she's magical and mysterious so she uses anachronistic tunes or something. But then it continued the rest of the episode so maybe not.

Just kinda felt like a weak episode all around.

Edited by InkDagger on Sep 7th 2020 at 2:34:25 AM

The pages were in no way accidental. That was Montrose trying to get rid of the proverbial spellbook, and when that did not work, he escalated to murder.

Unfortunately, homophobia is a very realistic thing among the black community during that time period. I definitely think there's still time for a gay character to actually play a role and for homophobia to be acknowledged somehow, but I do wonder how it will be incorporated into the story.

However, I absolutely agree about the music. Hearing Bitch Better Have My Money in a show that takes place in the 1950s took me right out of the show. They really need to cut that out. Also, the treatment of the Yahima was very weird.

Still, I think this show is very good and entertaining. Letitia fucking Lewis is the best character I've seen on television in a while.

Edited by deuteragonist on Sep 7th 2020 at 12:36:55 PM

I must have missed him knocking the pages out then. The camera work was too removed from the action for me to notice. Or maybe I was just kinda wrapped up in the water filling the elevator. I just utterly missed it.

Yeah, I get homophobia is period appropriate but it just feels counter to the intention here? Like, we're, through context of Lovecraft as a brilliant writer but hateful bitter racist, telling a story that challenges and confronts those aspects of his literature. We're willing to confront his racism and sexism, but not his homophobia?

Even if 'Hey, it's wrong but we don't have a way to work it into the series without adding/re-developing plotlines', then why say anything at all? Why bring it up? Like I said, Letitia could have raised the same concerns without the homophobia at all.

It just felt like a strange sticking point and reminds me CONSTANTLY that, any period pieces before basically the 90s, if you're gay you're either a prop, dead/dying, or evil/sleazy. We just... don't exist. Anywhere. It's why it's so hard and pulling teeth to get gay representation into genre films based on middle age fantasy; "We don't exist there". Sorry. Probably going tangent a bit. I made my point.

If you think that just because Letitia is a woman that there wouldn't have been homophobic undertones, then you are missing the point.

Casual homophobia isn't just a 1950s thing, its very much a part of the black experience, up to the modern era. It has little to do with Lovecraft himself, in this context, and someone like Misha Green is probably very aware of that.

Wait, what? No. I mean that she wouldn't have brought it up. All she has to do is ask "Hey, how did Montrose get us in here?" and draw suspicion THAT way. The Homophobia is just a way for the side character who has no context for the supernatural stuff to draw Tic's suspicion to Montrose. Leti, who has all the context, could have just done it herself without ever mentioning anything else.

Then again, you're missing the point.

If you're trying to tell an authentic story about black people living in America, homophobia is going to come into it. Full stop.

Then I feel like we should *do something* with it rather than just acknowledging it exists. Because, if that's the only point "BTW, our heroes are also tots homophobic" and absolutely nothing else, then... I kinda don't like them anymore. Should we also have one of the older characters go on an anti-abortion rant for the sake of one? Even if it's probably accurate? Should we also bring up trans individuals just to throw them under the bus while we're at it???

This is still fiction. You're missing my point entirely. Featuring homophobia for no other reason besides "Tots period accurate" in a narrative that's fundamentally about oppressed groups throwing hands at both mortal and cosmic oppression, but nah, fuck those gays... I don't feel good about that. There is no point to bringing it up. We constantly curb historical accuracy in other ways for the purposes of telling a story. Why go out of our way for this point?

Now, can future episodes course correct? I mean, sure, but knowing the source material I kinda don't feel like they're going to. And that makes me uncomfortable.

Edited by InkDagger on Sep 8th 2020 at 1:34:21 AM

I feel it's quite important that although the protagonists are often in the position of receiving unjust prejudice, this does not at all preclude them also having unjust prejudices. And as pointed out, often did.

Finished Episode 5. I, well, if I felt uncomfortable last week, I feel more so this week.

On the pro side, wow, the "Metamorphasis" was HORRIFYING and excellently done. Nauseating entirely and probably as it should be. Good for them on pulling it off so well.

On the other side...

I guess Montrose IS gay and in the closet. How the rando last episode picked that up from him knowing a Security Guard kinda felt like dumb foreshadowing. The character is right because they read the script, not because they put two and two together. I also really don't like the Armored Closet Self-Hating Gay Trope. And I felt like the episode wanted for me to go 'aw' so sweet when he finally kissed his Drag Queen when... all I can think about is what an awful man Montrose is and how that Drag Queen deserves so much better.

I'd probably feel better about it if gay rep wasn't so rare... If I had more representation I could feel good about, I'd be less bothered by the more complicated characters adding to that representation I guess.

As for Ruby... yeah, no, her raping the guy with her shoe was uncomfortable. Rape is a Special Kind Of Evil in my book. I thought she was just going to castrate him and be done with it. The shoe was... WAY too much. I think that was the wrong move. I loved Ruby's storyline up to then and now I'm so far away from that train. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Now I just feel MASSIVELY uncomfortable. And I'm not sure the show was going for that with how they framed the scene. I kinda get the impression we're supposed to be still on Ruby's side through that.

Caught up with the show (I was behind since 3).

My opinion is along the same bylines as Ink, though moderately less harsh. 1 was a brilliant episode, 2-3 were pretty good. 4 was middling. 5 is a bit of a return to form with the Ruby plotline.

But boy the problems. Montrese being gay did not actually bother me that much (I am not gay though my brother is, but me and my brother's boyfriend were alright with the concept of the character), but what did bother me is how nearly every time the fact he's a thoroughly repulsive, abusive asshole the show walks backwards to toss him some kind of lifeline. Yeah, he's had it rough, but so did everyone else in the main cast and none of them felt the need to become gigantic assholes. I was starting to ponder "maybe he can at least grow better after this whole ordeal" when he killed Yahime, something I find pretty much inexcusable for both the writing of the show itself and the character. Terrible on both sides of the fourth wall. Fuck Montrosse and the horse he rode on.

I feel like the show has a very firm grasp on white-on-black racism and general feminism, but stumbles more when outside of that wheelhouse (so, sexuality and gender namely). The scene with Ruby violating the manager was an example, though I'm more on the fence if that was meant to be a empowering moment or not. In a sense it was (given the song choice and framing) but it also came hot on the heels off Christina telling Ruby about magic being "unmitigated freedom", and Christina is a profoundly horrible person.

It's stumbling. Parts of it are still pretty brilliant, namely in the cinematography (Ruby's scene against the manager, problematic as it was, was shot to perfection). It's a rockier road than I expected so far, and I kind of dread what is in store for Tick's Korea plotline.

Episode 6: Interesting premise on paper, slightly rocky execution

It's one of those stories where it makes sense to expand on the source material and potentially shine light on what it was like for people of color fighting in other countries, but I feel like leaning this much into the supernatural before Atticus encounters the Braithwhites is slightly incongruous? I don't think it gels with the characterization established for Atticus in the first two episodes.

I dunno, thematically giving more merit to the idea of America as "Lovecraft Country" as not just mired with a sickness within but something that's brought over to other places and twists people there is valid but Ji-Ah's story *right now* feels like an extended interlude that's not clear if it feeds back into the main story more than it already has.

Ji-Ah as someone mainly outside of the main supernatural conflict is interesting but also the bar is insanely low after Yahima's treatment :/

Kudos to Jamie Chung though because she really worked to pull this episode together.

I admit I'm not sure how the show wants me to think about the war here given the spy is an agent for North Korea, a country that literally would kill someone like Tic for the color of his skin as well and has actual death camps. It feels like it was skating over that.

I feel like you need to address that to get the full, "This is horrifying everywhere" feel.

Episode 7: I honestly would say this is a case where the adaptation provided a more interesting look at the character than the source material, especially with the framing of Hippolyta's relationship with George. And I appreciated learning about some new historical figures.

I did find it interesting that Hippolyta didn't really include Diana from her fantasy with George but still borrowed the iconography from her comic books and how after enough time to make peace with herself and really explore who she is, she decides to return for Diana's sake. I dunno, I think it's an interesting character beat.

I liked it too. I was kinda worried she would stay for herself with being kinda awkward in a 'I want you to be happy and do things for yourself, but, yo, you DO have a daughter and family who would be broken over your 'death'.

I do feel like there's a SLIGHT element of losing the thread a bit. Each episode so far has been great; I want to be clear. But as each character is getting a 'centric' episode of development and we spread further out from the core cast (Tick and Leti, I'd say), I feel like we're losing a bit of focus on the grander plot at play a bit. I liked the previous episode in Korea. That was absolutely fascinating. But... How much is this actually going to come back? Or, we also left an episode on a massive cliffhanger on Ruby's reaction to Christina/William... and I still don't really know how she feels about that exactly and I feel like I should understand that by now.

And, hey, maybe I'm concerned for nothing. I probably won't have a full feeling on this until we're at the end of the show. But it's a thought that occurred to me.

So, what's the significance of the 'Lovecraft Country' book? I thought it was just a cheeky nod to the original book, but they're seemingly setting up a plot point here.

I also still cannot find it in myself to give a fuck about Montrose and his gay relationship woes. Every time they try to make me care, they consistently remind me that he's an asshole and an abusive fuck. I just... why am I suppose to care? He's not even nice to his boyfriend! Hell, their sex even looked REALLY painful to me as someone who IS in a gay relationship. Everything feels tempered to remind me he's awful.

Oh huh I thought they were going to resolve the curse on Diana the episode it was introduced, but that's one hell of a way to leave it hanging. Pretty messed up that no one was able to really talk with her about anything but that probably was the point.

Atticus asks Ji-Ah the question of "Why are you here?", which is a very good question considering her presence is a markedly clumsy move to get this plot rolling. Like she off-handedly mentions that she's killed the 100th man and the idea that she just capped the required kills off with no clue as to what this means for her character or how this resolves her conflict with her mother is just like why. Doesn't really help that continuity of time is pretty unclear with Ji-Ah's travel to America.

Meanwhile Ruby continues her messed-up romance(?)/roleplay(?)/relationship with Christina and I have no clue what to make of it at this point.

The incorporation of the book is a cute nod to the source material and an interesting way to set up future events, which... wasn't really done well with Ji-Ah's visions.

Atticus and Leti getting their hands on proper magic for their own use was a very satisfying climax.

I'm with you about Ruby and Christina. I don't know what to make of it, nor do I know where it's going. And since we're just not touching the fact that she raped that guy a few episodes ago with a shoe and we're still meant to empathize with her... yeah, that's in gross territory. I don't know what to make of Christina trying to off herself in the same way as Emmitt Till was murdered either.

I also found Ji-Ah's presence to be distracting and clumsy. Yes, I want her to come back because Jamie Chung owned that episode and I want the events to have a lot of relevance as to justify spending a full episode on it... but she's there for maybe a scene and I felt like the conflict was forced.

And she's just... gone after, I guess?

Well the finale was a thing, I guess I'll just mark my thoughts in bullet points to ensure they can be coherent.

• The emphasis on family was an interesting theme to tie this episode together.
• Atticus went out swinging and died on his own terms, I liked his letter as the coda to everything, really ties into most of the characters there together.
• Ji-Ah's weird because she had good buildup and a killer focus episode, but then she just kinda petered out as a character. Her involvement in the climax vis-a-vis prophecied moment was definitely one of those "okay sure I guess" moments.
• Actually I think the same line of thought applies to Diana for this episode specifically.
• The binding all white people from using magic twist is definitely an interesting adaptational change and definitely valid, when considering the difference in tv and book writer.
• The end scene feels off-kilter, Christina dying is pretty final for wrapping things up, but Diana being the one to calmly do it and the roar of the family's Shoggoth as triumphant for the very final thing it ends feels super dissonant with the whole grieving their loved one like two minutes prior.
• wait did Hippolyta ever find out that George had a thing with Dora to have Atticus
• Overall this show very deftly puts its own spin on the source material with the main narrative but the side stuff where it branches off to do its own thing is either very hit or very miss.
• Intersecting with history with people like Emmett Hill and Bessie Springfield were very well handled, imo. I also liked the touch of adding non-diegetic speeches to reinforce the narrative and what they want to build up with their narrative about black people.
• OTOH, queer characters severely got the short end of the stick with 4 queer characters being killed, 1 being a minor supporting character, and 1 being Montrose with all the baggage that entails.
• And their handling of other racial minorities is a mixed bag, Yahima is the absolute nadir and the introduction of Ji-Ah was at the very least a worthwhile attempt on mediating Korea and America, if somewhat flawed in where they wanted to go with the concept.
• Christina was an excellent villain from start to end, as an embodiment of white privilege and the casual racism in America while not looking past her own struggle in terms of understanding what it means to not fill all the qualifiers that western society prefers in people (ie, just in this episode with her callous comments about Atticus just happening to be the best component of her spell and having to kill Ruby because they forced her hand into it somehow).
• Overall, I think there are some parts worth watching again, they did some fascinating choices with adaptation, and the characters were compelling, but certain writing choices don't quite make this as great as I was hoping for. At least, it was a self-contained story with beginning and end in one season, which I definitely appreciate.

Edited by Nouct on Oct 19th 2020 at 10:46:55 AM