Foil: requires interaction or in-work comparison?

Foil has attracted misuse for any arbitrary comparison between similar yet different characters. It has been decided the work has emphasis those traits and show it's intentional.

However, there has been debate on if being compared/contrasted in-universe is sufficient, or if the Foils in question have to interact. Per this, I'm taking the question here.

The trope says in its description that interaction is required. I don't see any possible debate here.

"being compared/contrasted in-universe is sufficient,"

We may need a page for this.

Copy-pasting my comment regarding "foils must interact":

Reymma replied, regarding Jekyll & Hyde:

Basically, I am concerned that "foils must interact" may be placing a restriction on an established, pre-TV Tropes literary term that is not actually part of the definition.

Is it not part of the actual definition? Foils need to interact because that's how the differences are highlighted.

People have brought up other ways narratives can highlight differences between characters. Is the interaction rule something that's accepted outside of this site, or say, was it just assumed when the Foil page was written that that's the only way to highlight differences?

I looked up foil on The Other Wiki and found the following. It's in a folder because there's a lot to go over.

Foil (fiction): In fiction, a foil is a character who contrasts with another character, usually the protagonist, to highlight qualities of the other character. In some cases, a subplot can be used as a foil to the main plot. This is especially true in the case of metafiction and the "story within a story" motif. The word foil comes from the old practice of backing gems with foil to make them shine more brightly.

• In Emily Brontë's Wuthering Heights, Edgar Linton is described as opposite to main character Heathcliff, in looks, money, inheritance and morals, however similar in their love for Catherine.
• In Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley, the two main characters—Dr. Frankenstein and his "creature"—are both together literary foils, functioning to compare one to the other.
• In David Copperfield, by Charles Dickens, Edward Murdstone's marriage to David's mother Clara, contrasts with David's future marriage to Dora Spenlow, presented with a different outcome if David had endeavored to subdue his wife's caprices, as did Edward Murdstone with Clara's.
• In Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, Mary's absorption in her studies places her as a foil to her sister Lydia Bennet's lively and distracted nature.
• Similarly, William Shakespeare's tragedy Julius Caesar, the character Brutus has foils in the two characters, Cassius and Mark Antony.[10] In the play Romeo and Juliet, Romeo and Mercutio serve as character foils for one another, as well as Macbeth and Banquo in his play Macbeth. In the tragedy Hamlet, a foil is created between Laertes and Prince Hamlet to elaborate the differences between the two men.[11] In Act V Scene 2, Prince Hamlet tells Laertes that he will fence with him and states, "I'll be your foil, Laertes" (5.2.272).[12] This word play reveals the foil between Hamlet and Laertes, that was developed throughout the play.
• In the Harry Potter series, Draco Malfoy can be seen as a foil to the Harry Potter character; Professor Snape enables both characters "to experience the essential adventures of self-determination" but they make different choices; Harry chooses to oppose Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters, whereas Draco eventually joins them.
• George and Lennie are foils to each other in John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men. Lennie is huge and strong as a bull but is also mentally slow, while on the other hand George is small, skinny and very smart.
• In the Gospels of Mark (12:41-44) and of Luke (21:1-4), the poor widow puts two copper coins worth a penny into the treasury; she is a foil for the rich who put far more into the treasury but give far less.

Encyclopædia Britannica: Foil, in literature, a character who is presented as a contrast to a second character so as to point to or show to advantage some aspect of the second character. An obvious example is the character of Dr. Watson in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes stories. Watson is a perfect foil for Holmes because his relative obtuseness makes Holmes’s deductions seem more brilliant.

Oxford Reference: A character whose qualities or actions serve to emphasize those of the protagonist (or of some other character) by providing a strong contrast with them. Thus in Charlotte Brontë's Jane Eyre, the passive obedience of Jane's school‐friend Helen Burns makes her a foil to the rebellious heroine.

The Anthem Dictionary of Literary Terms and Theory: foil A CHARACTER whose qualities emphasis another's (usually the protagonist's) by providing a sharp contrast. For example, the impulsive and aggressive Flotspur in 1 Henry IV is a foil to Prince Hal, who spends much of the play messing around at a tavern.

Cramster.com A foil is generally a character whose traits emphasize the strengths of another character, usually the protagonist. For example, the often short-sighted opinions of Dr. Watson emphasize the brilliance of Sherlock Holmes. A comic foil is often a "straight man" who provides opportunities for the comic character's humor. Less usual is a plot foil, a subplot that contrasts with the main plot and brings it into sharper focus. The light-hearted romance between Nerissa and Gratiano in The Merchant of Venice highlights the more serious courtship of Portia and Bassanio. The term "foil" comes from the practice of placing a piece of metallic foil under a gemstone to make it appear to shine more.

To summarize, despite Foil being a well established concept outside TV Tropes, none of the sources say physical interaction between them is required.

In that case, how do we prevent this from just becoming "these two characters are different lol"? How do we ensure that all examples are genuine foils and not just fans drawing random comparisons, as we know people do? That's part of why I like the "must interact" thing- it sets some sort of criteria we can use, instead of just being vague as all hell.

I'm pretty sure that in most if not all of those examples given above , the characters do interact. Regardless, just because a term is common outside of TV Tropes doesn't mean we need to slavishly adhere to its general definition, especially if that results in a poor-quality trope. We aren't a lit-crit site.

We can stick to one point: a foil is always intentional on the part of the author. This doesn't mean we need to cite Word of God on the matter, but it's got to be an obvious contrast, not just a coincidence. Villains are often contrasted against heroes, but that doesn't mean one is the foil of the other, unless the point of the conflict is to demonstrate that.

I looked over the edit history of Foil. the "Interaction between the characters is key for a pair of characters to qualify as an example" was added per Foil Cleanup Thread. Looking over it it looks like the question of the contrast being brought up by in-work characters is sufficient to count never came up. I asked about it.

Maybe Foil should be a Super-Trope with sub-trope used instead of it when applicable.

Or maybe character talking about the contrast is Foil as a Discussed Trope.

"How do we ensure that all examples are genuine foils and not just fans drawing random comparisons, as we know people do?"

Aside from interactions:

• In-universe comparisons, whether by the narrative or other people
• Having the same/similar role/position in story
• Having the 2 characters connect to a certain something or someone; "fellow X"

Edited by 4tell0life4 on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:51:20 AM

I mean, I think that sounds like solid criteria for whether something should count as a foil or not, but I'm fairly certain that a lot of users would rather stick with the "only characters that interact" rule for foils, so I don't know.

In-Universe comparison however could be a Contrasting Sequel Main Character and Contrasting Sequel Antagonist too, though.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jul 27th 2020 at 5:57:47 AM

But what if something isn't a sequel to something? Like, what if an antagonist dies in the story, but in the same story is replaced and said new antagonist is compared In-Universe to the old antagonist?

Edited by ssjSega on Jul 27th 2020 at 6:20:19 AM

"I mean, I think that sounds like solid criteria for whether something should count as a foil or not, but I'm fairly certain that a lot of users would rather stick with the "only characters that interact" rule for foils, so I don't know."

If people insist, the other criteria can be made separate trope(s).

I'm just saying that what I listed are valid trope concepts too

Edited by 4tell0life4 on Jul 27th 2020 at 6:28:25 AM

What about juxtaposition? When the don't necessarily interact but the editing portrays them in a way to show contrast. Would that be enough to prove it intentional enough to count as this trope?

I see that tropable.

Maybe we can compromise here and make a split. Make Foil the broader supertrope and split it into interaction-based foils and then juxtaposition-based.

What about if comparisons/contrasts for non-interacting characters are brought up in-universe?

Probably a lampshaded version of the second one.

Just adding that the interaction-based foils should probably be limited to instances where the interaction itself demonstrates the contrast, otherwise it's just "two characters who interact, who also happen to share a few similarities/differences", which is an equally bad example.

I got a reply from the maker of the Foil Cleanup thread saying it should be interacting only and other discussing the contrast is a Discussed Trope. Juxtaposition like I described sounds like a separate trope.

I'll add this to Square Peg, Round Trope on the 4th per Three-Day Rule unless I hear any objections. I'm also asking here.

• Foil is often shoehorned to apply to any coincidentally contrasting characters, even from completely separate series. Foils have to interact with each other to emphasize the contrast and show it is intentional. Other talking about their contrast is Foil as a Discussed Trope. Other intentionally contrasting character may fall under Contrasting Sequel Main Character / Contrasting Sequel Antagonist.

Has the thread-maker been informed of the discussion in this thread? Because the discussion here has brought up points against that.

I PM'd the troper who made the 1st Foil cleanup and asked for their thoughts.

How about this?

• Foil is often shoehorned to apply to any coincidentally contrasting characters, even from completely separate series. Foils have to interact with each other or be juxtaposed in-work to emphasize the contrast and show it is intentional. Other talking about their contrast is Foil as a Discussed Trope. Other intentionally contrasting character may fall under Contrasting Sequel Main Character / Contrasting Sequel Antagonist.

Or are we talking about splitting Foil into separate interaction and juxtaposition based tropes?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Aug 1st 2020 at 10:09:06 AM

I'm not sure.

Just to be clear, the troper you're referring to is I Like Robots, right?