Haiku-Wiki Cleanup

Can I raise a note of caution about being so rigid on the 5-7-5 structure?

It's a bit of a fallacy that English-language haiku have to conform to the 5-7-5 structure. Published poets often discard the 5-7-5 structure in English (and still win awards from Japanese haiku societies for such poetry, e.g., Lenard D. Moore, an American poet).

Official haiku advice tends to recommend that English language haiku should not adhere to the 5-7-5 format because of the differences between English language syllables and Japanese sounds (on), and poets therefore often unlearn the 'sacrosanct' rules we all learn in school. The general recommendation is that a haiku should use the structure and flow that best suits the cadence of each specific poem, which is to be as minimal as possible in terms of syllables. This obviously can include 5-7-5 formats if that best suits the poem.

Some poets do stick rigidly to the 5-7-5 format; many do not.

Haiku tend to be measured on criteria other than just syllable counting. I'm therefore wondering if this site is going about the clean-up in the right way if there's such a large focus on syllable counting, especially as most poems on this site that fit the 5-7-5 structure won't actually be haiku at all.

To give a couple of sources that cover this subject: the British Haiku Society (Section E), the Haiku Society of America (Definition of a Haiku), and the National Haiku Writing Month advice (Why no 5-7-5?).

My suggestion would be to focus on poems that are complaining and very low quality. Leave (for now) any 5-7-5 poems that appear decent; and, if you come across any that seem to be decent quality but have less than 17 syllables, don't worry too much about them. However, if they have more than 17 syllables, that's a different matter (the Haiku writing advice is 17 syllables or less, so poems with more than 17 syllables will definitely be wrong).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 2nd 2020 at 11:23:28 AM

Haiku.Foodfight unsurprisingly has a lot of haikus bashing the movie, including a haiku made out of three different haikus and a haiku for the trope Foodfight! mixed up with them.

Edited by jandn2014 on Jul 10th 2020 at 12:44:52 PM

You make some excellent points. Maybe we should be less strict about the syllable count.

I have to wonder, who exactly was the first person to suggest that haikus could be shorter than 5-7-5?

This is the first time I heard of 5-7-5 being not absolute, it just feels so wrong and alien that they can be shorter.

This might be useful to put on the Haiku-Wiki main page, to be more encouraging towards people scared off by the artificial syllable count.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jul 11th 2020 at 4:01:20 PM

I don’t know about English language haikus, but the nature of the Japanese language lends itself to a structure that counts sections of words differently. For example, almost all “syllables” in Japanese end with a vowel; “n” is the only consonant that does not need to be followed by a vowel, but an “n” character would be counted as its own “syllable”. That is, “kin” would be written as きん (ki n) and would be counted as two “points” in a haiku.

I’m not sure haikus in English get the same treatment.

It's a good question. I don't know which poet became the trend-setter, but it's certainly an on-going, ever-evolving discussion in the poetry world.

I don't blame you for having the feeling that it's wrong. I've had years to get used to the idea but I still remember how it blew my mind the first time I was taught to 'minimise' my syllables.

That said, I wouldn't say it's 'artificial'. Some professional poets swear by it. It's not wrong to prefer doing it that way. For other professional poets, it's about minimalism, which is why you minimise your syllables. So, you're still keeping an eye on your syllables; you're still effectively counting.

And, of course, whether you're a poet who likes sticking to the 17 syllables or a poet who like to minimise your syllables, no-one is allowed to go over 17 syllables. So, you are still counting, and poems longer than 17 syllables are still wrong.

I just wanted to flag that if you come across any you think are decent, but are less than 17 syllables, it might be worth letting them stay. This isn't going to stop you cutting examples that are longer than 17 syllables, or anything that meets the syllable count but is poor/complaining.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 11th 2020 at 12:31:27 PM

Interesting. I'll keep it in mind.

Granted, I haven't seen any that go under the 17 syllable mark.

Should Haiku examples be cut from tropes deemed too NSFW to have on-page examples? There's a Haiku on Comedic Lolicon that might be taken as glorifying the subject, and I'm not sure if that's violating the policy.

Frankly, I'd take that Haiku as not discussing the subject at all...

Haiku.Birdemic has multiple haikus that just bash the film.

Troll Post is effectively blank. I know it's fitting, but I think it should be cut for being blank.

Eh, it's funny though.

I actually like that.

Haiku.Dingo Pictures is still filled with complaining. I say cut it or maybe leave the first one that says it’s So Bad, It's Good and one that just describes who they are.

Edited by ccorb on Jul 27th 2020 at 4:22:28 AM

The only example on I. M. Meen is Creator Bashing.

Cutlist.

I added one that wasn't Creator Bashing, but even though I brought that up on the discussion page as I was advised to, it got deleted anyway.

...Welp.

You can probably just remake it with the new one, honestly, and cite this thread.

Is it not possible to just restore deleted pages? I mean, if it isn't, I have no problem just retyping what I typed; I just thought I should ask that.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 3rd 2020 at 9:48:21 AM

You'd have to directly contact a mod for that. Normal users cannot restore cut pages.

Troll Post should be cut.

Honestly, I'm tempted to let it stay.

Nope. Not a chance. It only serves to cause annoyance, and by definition, isn’t even a haiku at all. It isn’t anything. It’s shit.

...that's an oddly hostile response.

Honestly, I think Haiku.Troll Post is funny, too.

Edited by Primis on Aug 5th 2020 at 11:24:05 AM

Just cleaned up Haiku.Dingo Pictures and left just one that describes who they are.