The General Star Wars Thread

I know that was a suggestion in the story but I don't know if that was really a foundational argument that Palpatine made the Empire specifically because he foresaw the Vong. Any authoritarian government maintains its power by shifting the needs of their power to an immediate danger, whether it be a environmental crisis, internal corruption or external opponent. Revealing that Palpatine had an idea of what was going to happen doesn't really change anything that we were given in the main narrative, the Empire started off with Separatist remnants to defeat and then the Rebel "terrorists" to deal with so they were never hurting for a true enemy as propaganda.

The problem with the Nazi germany parallels its more about their rise then how they functioned since ya know they didn't last long enough as a empire to take notes on.

I guess the FO capture the Flash in the Pan nature of WW 2's Nazi and Fascist factions better in that regard

The Galactic Empire is bits of Rome, France, Germany, Britain and The USA

Palpy borrows bits from Julius Caesar, Augustus, Napoleon, Hitler and Nixon... but He honestly takes a lot more from the Augustus and Napoleon then than the later two... since Palpy A: Doesn't devolve into raving mess of a person once his luck runs out... and B: Isn't undo by his ranging paranoia even when he is pretty much the uncontested winner by a damn mile

If anything Palpy's ultimate death is him rolling the dice one last time and not realizing just how much everybody wants him dead... Yes it loses alot of that meaning due to the DBZ nature of his death but... Its JJ on a rushed schedule what do you want?

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Apr 17th 2021 at 1:16:17 PM

It seems pretty odd to say that people needed three prequels to realize that the creepy old man in the black cloak with torture lightning boasting of the power of darkness is evil and doing it for evil’s sake.

Some people just worship power.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 17th 2021 at 11:25:52 AM

That is true, but I think the Soviet Union offers a grey area for writers to make an Empire that is not blatantly evil, and this had a snowball effect that led to the whole Palpatine foresaw the Yuuzhan Vong. Attempts to the Empire a greyer faction without knowing how it rose to power in the first place has led to these Rooting for the Empire arguments.

It's noticeable in the post-PT era, the Empire is portrayed as a more fanatical, unstable organization that collapsed within a year after the death of the Emperor. There is no greater agenda beyond making the galaxy grovel before them for the feeling of power they once had.

In a way, the PT ended all these notions that the Empire could have been a force for good or is more greyer than we believed. Lucas simply said no, showing that it was founded on a lie and built with bloodshed to satisfy the ego of one evil man.

Edited by Shadao on Apr 17th 2021 at 11:31:06 AM

The destruction of Alderaan alone should have been enough of a moral event horizon for the Empire.

I guess that kind of mass murder just does not feel real to people.

The thing sobering about the Nazis is that they're unrealistically evil. If you used them in your novel and tried to sell it as a war book to a timeline where Hitler got into writing sci-fi they would call your book over-dramatic tripe. And yet the fact the Nazis were real really shows that humans really have no limits to what evil they're capable of

Which of course makes them good fuel to base villains on, along with the fact they're the Villain by Default. That's what you get for a group who's entire goal is "genocide the people we don't like"

Edited by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 on Apr 19th 2021 at 5:29:56 AM

I remember reading an article asserting, no joke, that Alderaan's destruction was justified as a "military target" (despite Leia saying they have no weapons and Tarkin doesn't dispute this) and that it wasn't genocide because humans exist elsewhere.

Worship at the seat of power! Might makes right!

"That is true, but I think the Soviet Union offers a grey area for writers to make an Empire that is not blatantly evil"

I guess the soviet union feel that way because they are paired in the same context as the nazis who really feel try to behave like opera or theater villians, once you remove that they are pretty fuckin damn evil, but meh.

"The destruction of Alderaan alone should have been enough of a moral event horizon for the Empire."

It happen later enough that you can said the empire could be diferen.

"Which of course makes them good fuel to base villains on, along with the fact they're the Villain by Default. That's what you get for a group who's entire goal is "genocide the people we don't like" "

Yeah, the fact the nazis didnt last long as empire also make the good as villian...in theory because the idea they last THAT long being the top dog make the comparation weaker, in that regard the galatic empire is better than the nazis.

Up till the Disney EU reboot, The empire was portrayed as having a equal mix Saturday morning Cartoon villains and Guys in the Empire who saw it as a means to an end to bring order to an unruly galaxy.

Rebels specifically still has someone like Yularen in the Empire, Hell Alot of the Imps that switch sides are guys who see Palpy or Tarkin as the monsters they are.

when it comes to modern views of the WW 2 factions At this point Who is the bigger monster was during WW 2 between Nazi, Fascist, Imperialists and Communists is just a matter who you find what more disgusting that day of the week.

That and people are slowly getting around that Calling Japan out for its perverse brutality isn't a racist line of thought.

but going back to the sympathetic Imp arguments The disney reboot to the EU basically squarely made the Imps a more 1 to 1 Nazis allegory... while removing as many sympathetic characters or traits.

Which is hilarious cause just like Hitler... Palpy's burn the galaxy down plan is met with a majority of Hahahaha Thats fucking stupid with other characters hijacking the imperial retreat.

The problem is Sloane is clearly written in the same vein as Pelleon or Kaine an Imp that sees the Empire as Order

The problem comes is the set up is they devolve into the FO who are pretty much just Space Nazis. I guess you could argue thats where Snoke ultimately comes in painting Palpy as their glorious martyr

The FO are just bland as faction 'largely cause Disney doesn't want to market actual nazis so FO only really gun down a couple of yokels on Jakku

Which begs the question why the hell Disney didn't just take parts of the EU and just make them canon.

Edited by KouTheMad on Apr 18th 2021 at 4:58:37 AM

Didn't they take Dark Empire and made it canon?

That's basically what they're doing. The old EU was a mess, so they jettisoned it all but brought back the good parts under better context.

Sure, the new EU was a bit of a mess to start too, but they've definitely got a handle on things now.

They essentially did in terms of characters/planets/etc.

What they didn't do is take entire works from the EU and declare them canon but not other works. Since grafting an entire work like that into a new continuity canon would be very messy and would likely end up being broad strokes continuity in practice.

Edited by Falrinn on Apr 18th 2021 at 6:20:07 AM

Yeah, they're picking and choosing all the best parts. That's why Thrawn is allowed to be in the new canon but not in the context of "I'm this rando that was out in the Unknown Regions for 20 years and only came back now", and why one of the legions of Sith Troopers in the Sith Eternal is the Revan Legion when all of them are named after Sith Lords.

You might be joking, but that would have been improvement over what we got instead.

I still want Republic Commando re-canonized

(The game, not the horrid Traviss books)

Edited by Forenperser on Apr 18th 2021 at 5:12:35 PM

I've always found "The Empire brings law and order to a lawless galaxy!" argument amusing since the reason the galaxy was in such turmoil prior to the Empire was because the Emperor himself made it that way. It's like praising an arsonist for putting out the fire he started and making him king. Most people don't know that, obviously, but it makes people like Yularen useful dupes at best.

I've also always found "The Empire brings law and order to a lawless galaxy!" argument horrifying since the Empire openly practices slavery and commits state sanctioned murder on a regular basis. And that's not even bringing up the genocide and collusion with criminal enterprises. It's one thing to work for the Empire because it's pretty much the only game in town, but to support it as something to aspire to and superior to what came before requires a healthy dose of FYGM.

This is a big reason as to why human supremacy was a hallmark of the Old EU Empire. Making it so that it's "Us vs Them". There's alien slaves? Who cares, they're aliens. Happens IRL too.

Forgetting the former detail is a big issue with the Berserk fanbase too.

Ugh, Griffith fans are the worst.

Also, if I may reiterate my original question, is there actually a source where it’s even speculated that the Empire was formed to fight the Yuuzhan Vong, or is it a fan conflation, whether accidentally or deliberately, of Thrawn’s specific motives with those of the entire Empire?

I think even in-universe it's mostly just speculation.

That was even debunked.

I mean, in real life a lot of fascist/totalitarian regimes do end up having some Enemy Culture that they must perpetually fight against to manipulate/control society and justify militarisation.

It's just that in this case, there really was a threat coming. But that was pure coincidence rather than foresight or planning.

There was a lot of old EU that came back in Solo. Tags and Bink camoed, Han broke Chewie out of slavery (though under different circumstances), the Cloud Riders, Beckett had clashed with Aurra Sing, the Kessel Run being populated by dangerous creatures and black holes, Maul’s grand return to the films...

Also it put the “Empire brings law and order” claim to rest by showing organized crime has thrived under it. The Empire is happy to let gangs rule their territories like sub-governments so long as they don’t cross too many Imperial lines.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 18th 2021 at 1:27:12 AM