Needs Help: Named Weapons

Named Weapons is supposed to be the "formal" version of the "informal" I Call It "Vera". However, the line between the two is very blurry, with people arguing about what truly qualifies as "formal" or not, trying to figure out what the creators intended, and so on. This results in lots of examples being duplicated on both pages, or examples being deleted from both pages because they don't quite fit either.

On a recent Trope Talk thread, I had an epiphany and realized the problem was a Missing Supertrope. So here's my proposal:

• Named Weapons: Supertrope, for anything not covered under the subtropes. Does not include purely descriptive "names" like +1 flaming longsword. Those are not a trope.
  • I Call It "Vera": Nicknamed weapons. Jane really likes his best gun, so he called it Vera.
  • Legendary Weapon: Epic and powerful weapons with history attached to them.
  • Legendary Weapon Introduction: The big moment where the weapon is presented, with its name and history given some brief exposition. Like the moment in Return of the King when Aragorn is presented with Andûril.

Other than Legendary Weapon Introduction, most of these can be handled relatively easily with some description edits.

Unlocking, but we should look at a sampling of examples, both to comply with TRS policy and to help begin the inevitable sorting that will be required.

I'm agnostic about Legendary Weapon Introduction, which could be done with or without this action. It's not necessary to fix the issue, just something extra that would catch additional examples.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 11th 2019 at 2:28:01 PM

I dont like 'Legendary Weapon Introduction', they are not 'legendary' at the time of introduction.

I would go with more a Unique Custom Weapon Introduction, the weapon was custom made and being introduced now, with possible flashbacks to the crafting or the story has been about crafting it up to that point. Then subsequently follows a scene where it gets to kick ass.

Its not 'Legendary' till it has proven itself and I have seen a few examples where the weapon didn't make it past its first battle despite all that build up which can be 'Worf Effect the weapon' or it did its job and wasn't intended to last.

Edited by Memers on Oct 11th 2019 at 11:42:38 AM

"Behold my newly forged blade. I shall call it 'Maguffion, Slayer of Plot Obstacles'."

Three scenes later, Maguffion shatters on a kobold's dagger.

Anduril may have gotten a "legendary introduction" in the films, but in the books its history (or rather, the history of Narsil, from which it is reforged) is discussed extensively before it ever sees use in combat. The whole point is that it's not suddenly introduced into the plot, but is built up dramatically over time until Aragorn finally gets to wield it, signifying his rightful kingship. Heck, it doesn't even have any special powers, at least not that the story discusses.

Its value is precisely and specifically in its history, and as such it is certainly a legendary weapon.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 11th 2019 at 2:47:19 PM

Well yeah Narsil basically underwent a rebranding to become Anduril which makes it technically both tropes. Weapon rebranding like that common enough for a trope of its own?

But I was more thinking like Dragon Quest XI, you spend much of the late game of the second arc crafting The 'Sword of Light' to combat the 'final boss', takes forever to gather the materials and the actual crafting sequence is ridiculously flashy in a forge in the middle of a volcano, complete with a holding up a finished sword with it shining with blinding light... which then you promptly shatter to start the third arc.

Edited by Memers on Oct 11th 2019 at 12:16:00 PM

That might be a subversion but it still fits the theme of a legendary weapon. Just because you have to create it doesn't mean it's not the trope; what matters is the idea of the weapon: the metaphysical or cultural weight bestowed upon it.

Contrast with Charlize, who has an axe that she's really fond of. It's not particularly magical, has no special reputation in and of itself, but because she trains with it all the time and feels a sort of loyalty to it, she decides to name it "Axeageddon, Aggravator of Aardvarks". We get a super dramatic scene of her doing this, just to rub it in. It's still just a normal axe, though. When enemies see her, they don't say, "Oh no, there's Axeageddon, we're doomed!" They say, "Oh no, there's Charlize, who's really good with that axe!"

The emphasis is completely different.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 11th 2019 at 3:36:08 PM

Yep that contrast is why I was thinking to go more with 'Unique Custom Weapon'. A run of the mill generic mass produced weapon that does get all that is quite different and more along the lines of I Call It "Vera".

Now if that weapon lasts through so many battles and multiple owners and becomes famous in its own right and the other copies of said mass produced weapons get lost to time then it could fall under Legendary Weapon. I can think of several game series that do this with sequels and previous game's weapons.

That kind of journey for a weapon might be trope worthy in of itself actually. EDIT: that might be a weapon version of Legendary in the Sequel... maybe?

Edited by Memers on Oct 11th 2019 at 2:53:24 AM

Just in case: Named Weapons would exclude cases like these, right?

• Honkai Impact 3rd: Weapons of 4* stars rarity upward have either made-up names or taken from Stock Weapon Names; in most cases they're manufactured by a certain group. Such as Tranquil Arias or Jingwei's Wings (dual guns), Ice Epiphyllum or Mag-storm (katanas), Hand of Tyr or Star Shatterer: Vikrant (cannons).
• Team Fortress 2: While the name of the default/starting weapons are generic, craftable/purchasable weapons tend to have unique names.

...or am I wrong and they count?

First off, the TF 2 example is a ZCE.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 11th 2019 at 8:16:14 AM

Way to derail my point, man.

You could at least answer my question and then point that out.

I can't answer the question if I don't know what sort of "names" the TF 2 weapons have. The first one doesn't seem to fit from what I can tell, as it doesn't indicate that the name is "formal" or well-known, just that, well, the weapons have names.

Look, man. I can't answer you properly because the examples don't have enough information. Pointing this out isn't "derailing."

OK OK. As others have brought up, video games are iffy because the names might just be filigree/flavor text. They have game files and thus must have labels. Some weapons in TF2 have a name (more than just description or function), but most of them have no narrative significance. One exception that comes to mind is the Eyelander, a unique claymore referred as such in supplemental comics with its own backstory. Then again, the sword is also haunted by a malevolent sentient spirit who's capable of speaking fluent English.

So... unless there are weapon examples more concrete than that, there are no Named Weapons in TF2.

Don't ~ me. I haven't played TF2 in years.

Edited by Tabs on Oct 11th 2019 at 8:23:39 AM

One point of this discussion is if the Muramasa and Masamune swords count as legendary or nicknames. The story of the swords wasn't created until many years after, but within the context of the legend, these are freshly-made swords, so they wouldn't count as legendary. I think I'd rather split "sword is forged and named (Sub-Trope reforged?)" from "sword is named by wielder" and "sword has a famous history".

While video games seem like they might be a problem due to the way that every item in a game has some sort of label, it's not a problem I've noticed. People are aware of the difference between the +1 flaming longsword and The Flamebringer, even if both do the exact same thing. Just a short note in the description should be enough.

I'm also not going to fight for Legendary Weapon Introduction if no one else likes it. I just thought it was an obvious missing trope.

No, I like it, I just think 'legendary' is a bit overkill as just custom built weapons in general get that treatment.

Also for video games and naming, some actually let you the player name their weapons as well usually when you customize them, which would potentially be another subtrope.

Edited by Memers on Oct 12th 2019 at 5:23:17 AM

Well, that's covered pretty well under I Call It "Vera". I don't think that needs its own trope.

I guess I see a few in the Video Game section, probably should soft split those tbh. or at least make a paragraph about that.

Anyway in that trope its going to need a LOT of cleanup and distinction as pretty much every named weapon ever is on that page.

Like those are all the old actually Legendary Weapons in the game. the list is bigger now

Also a lot of the weapons listed there are unique custom weapons that have a name instead of a model number cause... well... they are unique. IE Vincent from FFVII's shotgun "Cerberus" which is a 3 barreled shotgun with sculpted dog head at the end of each barrel.

Even the entry of the fallout has this

Edited by Memers on Oct 13th 2019 at 2:03:00 AM

As I posted on the Trope Talk thread, you don't want to name every weapon. You want to condense it down a bit so it doesn't eat up half the page. And looking at the I Call It "Vera" page... listing literally every weapon seems more common than it should be. It's one of those things that isn't quite wrong, but it's definitely unnecessary and just clogs up the page. Resposting the example write-up from Trope Talk:

• World Of War Craft: Many quest chains grant weapons named after either the quest giver or the final boss of the chain, often with Punny Names such as Flabagash's Flamberge of Flatulence. Epic quests can even grant Legendary Weapons like Shadowmourne, an axe intended to mirror the Lich King's Frostmourne. And of course most boss-tier NPCs have their own named legendary weapons, such as Fordring's Ashbringer or Hellscream's Gorehowl. Sometimes these weapons eventually end up being available to players.

So yeah, the example lists are gonna need some cleanup too.

Sandboxes for Named Weapons, Legendary Weapon, and I Call It Vera descriptions. I Call It "Vera" just needed a tweak for trope relationships, but the other two needed a bit more of a rewrite.

The examples are going to be the bigger project. Still shouldn't be too hard, but I figured I'd bring up the descriptions first before diving into all that.

Formally Acknowledged Named Weapon

It's the middle level between nickname and legend, but can start at this level and sometimes never leave this level still intact. (I'll go through some of the examples given, but I think very few weapons jump straight from nickname to legend.)

Edit: Yeah, there're a few misplaced legends on the nickname page, but I'm not finding any that had a sudden jump in status. (I'll admit I'm skimming.)

(Also, the Vera page mentions "Ships and planes nearly always have a name." in it's description, and (fortunately) currently only has two entries (found with ctrl+f) that are specifically about named transportation. If the page is getting an edit anyway, it might be wise to specify that the trope is nicknames-for-weapons, or that "Warships and planes that have a formal name don't count.". This might be too much work to be worth it, though.)

Edit 2: If this tiered levels of names goes through, the Gundam examples need to be moved to the middle level. In the examples, only one of them has a personal nickname.

Of more importance: Should these permit non-weapons, or is there another trope for nicknamed items? (One of the examples specifically points this out, but also states Tropes Are Flexible.)

Edited by ImaginationStarts on Feb 12th 2020 at 12:19:25 PM

I definitely feel like formal named weapons aren't always tied to legend. For example, in Ōkami, everybody's sword has a formal name, but only two of the swords are part of the in-game lore- Tsukuyomi, the sword that slew Orochi, and Kutone, the sword fated to destroy evil in the land of Kamui. It's clear the other sword names, like Waka's Pillow Talk and Issun's Denkomaru, are there to maintain the tone of a legend, but we never hear that there's a story behind their blades.

Right, which is why I suggested turning Named Weapons into a supertrope. Catches all those little examples that don't have an obvious subtrope. And if some of those little examples eventually become common enough to deserve their own subtrope, then they can get one.

Any opinions on those sandboxes I posted?

They seem good to me, though shouldn't we have a crowner before deciding on things like Named Weapons being a supertrope?

Perhaps, but it seems unnecessary when no one's argued against it, only responded to other parts of Discar's post.

True, but this thread has stalled so much that a crowner may get things moving, or at least get more attention.