Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

Not at all, violent revolution and suppression of dissent are simply a product of being revolutionary authoritarians.

Such things have no intrinsic connection to genocide, it's telling that after Stalin died there was no mass murder of minorities equivalent to the Holodomor.

Nazi Germany was intrinsically genocidal, the Soviet Union was not.

That's something that matters, it's the difference between being awful and unimaginably awful.

Maybe but there was thue sociaty and many others, in the empire the only pals and vader.

As said, is not something that's the core of the Empire like with the former Sith Empire.

Palpatine's empire was his, not a Sith Empire, but Palpatine's Empire.

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I've said this, Hitler's Left wing counterpart wasn't Stalin. It was Pol Pot

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 3rd 2019 at 7:26:53 AM

The Thule Society was where all the high ranking Nazis hung out before the Nazi government took power, and when they did it was dissolved and its remaining members folded into the NSDAP. It wasn’t a big organization. Hitler himself actually didn’t really have any interest in the occult, it was mainly Himmler and the SS.

Occultism in Nazi Germany was uncommon outside of the elite, which is the same position the Dark Side holds in the Galactic Empire.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 3rd 2019 at 4:41:28 AM

With the Empire, they’re mostly Nazis. However, they are somewhat militantly materialistic as far as anyone can tell. Though it’s arguably a theocracy at the same time...which makes it an odd cross between anti-theism and theocracy by way of being secretly a theocracy.

Is their ideology actually anti-theistic?

My knowledge may be incomplete but I could've sworn they just exterminated the Jedi because they claimed the Order had committed treason by trying to assassinate the Chancellor. That's just standard authoritarian suppression of organizations that oppose them, it's not really evidence of opposition to religion.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 3rd 2019 at 7:47:13 AM

Admiral Motti gives a pretty blistering rebuke of belief in the Force. Guidebooks and the Radio Play also state the Force is outlawed as a religion whether by Jedi or not.

The Empire, itself, is atheistic even if other religions aren't outlawed.

Isn't Motti the one who got Force choked by Vader in front of the entire high command?

the Nazis outlawed mysticism as well. That one feature doesn’t make the Empire like the Soviets, they’re still an explicit Nazi analogue.

And besides, as Fourth pointed out, the opposition to the Jedi seems more politically motivated than religiously motivated.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 3rd 2019 at 4:53:09 AM

You know, you keep repeating that. I don't see why you want them to be just Nazis and not have any Soviet elements.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 3rd 2019 at 4:57:18 AM

Because that’s straight up what Lucas said they were. The Vietnam allegory didn’t come in until later, the visual language and political alignment were explicitly, specifically based off WW2 with the Empire as the Nazis.

Between this and your insistence the Imperium were actually Soviets I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 3rd 2019 at 5:05:48 AM

It's easy to think of the Empire as embracing the Dark Side because their iconography, architecture, and everything else screams 'Yes hello we are the bad guys', and they are the bad guys, but for the vast, vast majority of them, the Force is a fairy tale and no one knows that their higher-ups are actually evil space wizards. Which is something that Star Wars in general has struggled with in the past - making it seem like everyone is down with the Force, mostly because all the characters that are featured either are or know a Force-sensitive.

Granted, it's not as unrealistic as a Skywalker being present at every major political event for forty-odd years, but.

Does R2-D2 count as a Skywalker?

I said earlier Lucas claimed the Empire was a combination of Rome, The Soviet Union, Nazis, and Richard Nixon/America in Vietnam.

Do either of you have citations for that? That seems like the easier way of clearing it up.

Rome and parts of Vietnam-era US, yes. The Soviet Union, not so much. They’re explicitly a fascist state modeled after the Nazis, with a touch of Cesar for Palpatine. The Vietnam allegory came in later in the original trilogy.

It would be more accurate to say they’re Rome, the Nazis, Nixon, and the German Empire. They drew far more inspiration from WW1-era Germany than they did from the USSR. This makes sense, given that the early films are basically “WW2 in space”. The film was styled after the popular war films of the era.

Check out some of the quotes here, from a blog post about Imperial Officer uniforms: [1]

There’s even an interview where Lucas describes the Empire as explicitly a Nazi analogue, though the book isn’t up on google books any more. I’ll try and track down the relevant excerpt.

The reading of the Empire as Soviets came well after the films were released and various right-wing types wanted to reclaim (or claim, I guess) their message.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 3rd 2019 at 5:40:55 AM

Wouldn’t the force be just another law of nature? I’ve also considered some of the positive uses of sith powers (such as possessing someone to save their life or neutralize them nonviolently, midichlorian manipulation for life-saving medical care, etc). I sort of picture the “dark side” as being less an actual dark side and more a term of corruption.

I've found a pretty cool analysis that says that The Empire is the Dark Side...in a secular version.

Guys as Tarkin did the Empire being what is, but Takin was appointed for Palpatine himself. Tarkin wrote the Tarkin's Doctrine that more of less was Rule of Fear, the core of The Galactic Empire's authoritarianism. All of this approved directly for Palps himself. Who didn't had to do anything, just appoint a particularly ruthless ambitious officer.

I've said it before, but SW does something that every Dictatorship with a Hidden Magical Overlord should do. Make the dictatorship evil even without it's magical head. Make the people there genuinely believe on it's tyranny.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 3rd 2019 at 8:43:31 AM

@Fruitpork: My preference is that yeah, the Force doesn't really have objective morality, but depends on what you're using it for (and how you're using it - if you're just using Force Lightning to lash out because you're frustrated, you're probably on a bad path to begin with). Kind of like Bloodbending from Avatar TLA.

Aside from that, it is a law of nature, but it's one that the majority of people in that universe have never seen and don't necessarily believe in. Our perception of the Force is skewed as viewers because every major Star Wars work tends to prominently feature a Force-user.

The Jedi view all of the universe as part of the Force but that there's a good side and a bad side.

Weirdly, it was Matthew Stover (ubermensch writer) who said that it made the Jedi people who strongly resisted the "Law of the Jungle" ethos and tried to shape nature into something more peaceful.

The Light Side had to be active and suppressive of the Dark Side because the law of the jungle (i.e. nature) was inherently of the Dark.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5iq6CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=Star+Wars+Lucas+drew+from+Soviet+Union+Empire&source=bl&ots=6h6S4xykTi&sig=ACfU3U3uHJMTTEgiKKquk9Sf8iiw2VPK_A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwishMeo_qDgAhURTt8KHdyNCosQ6AEwFHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=Star%20Wars%20Lucas%20drew%20from%20Soviet%20Union%20Empire&f=false

Here ya go.

You may want to actually read the sources you’re linking.

That page is talking about Keith Booker’s analysis of Star Wars as an analogue for the Cold War, not the Empire’s inspirations.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 3rd 2019 at 6:12:03 AM

Yes.

Its relevant.

How? That’s an after the fact analysis, not a discussion of inspirations. It’s not even an analysis Lucas particularly cared for, he wasn’t exactly a big fan of the US during the Cold War.

I mentioned above that right-leaning types tried to claim the narrative of Star Wars during the Cold War, and that’s exactly how. Casting the US as a heroic underdog battling the overwhelming forces of communism was a favored tactic of theirs.

The only Soviet inspiration of note were their military parades. Lucas specifically mentioned their May Day parade when talking about some of the Imperial formation scenes.

Edited by archonspeaks on Feb 3rd 2019 at 6:30:11 AM

The thing with nazis and religion is that they were pretty damn schizophrenic about it: the including overly cristians, occultist, neo pagasm and all the jazz and many quotes also looks weirds as hell, with hitler seen embrasim atheism or overly theism at the drop of a hat.

That aspect is lost in the empire which is a shame because it show the shallow nature of facism in general.