Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

That doesn't do justice to just how much money the EU put into Greece. By 2017 it had reached 220 billion Euros.

Without a comparison point, that number doesn't mean much.

Meanwhile, I'd like to know how much Goldman Sachs profited from this, without ever admitting to any wrongdoing.

220 billion Euros was about 110% of Greece's GDP in that year.

So yeah, it was a pretty fucking huge investment in Greece.

Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2019 at 11:21:57 PM

We all are going waaaay far from the topic. But we're being polite and that's good.

Uh, I've read that Germany has some sort of Geographical potential to be a superpower, how true is that.

Moving this to General Politics BTW. This is a good topic.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 21st 2019 at 10:28:58 AM

So why would people confuse the EU with an Empire?

Seriously? You've got it full of countries that are THE poster-children of Empire building. If anything, it's amazing that no one made that assertion until very recently.

Historical reputation, plus tons of misinformation on what the EU actually does combined with people who see anything resembling a superstate as "evilly-evil" and you've got "The EU is a new Holy Roman/Germanic Empire, hurr-durr".

Also, the (unfortunately still) prevalent mindset of "Fuck Germany because Nazis". Despite literally everything that's happened since 1945.

It's like calling America the Third Rome. Another particularly fine example of bullshit artistry.

Edited by TechPriest90 on Jun 21st 2019 at 11:39:33 AM

I guess I'm more shocked that anyone here would call it an empire.

Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2019 at 11:39:26 PM

A local superpower within Europe, maybe. Globally? It would need to build that mythical EU army.

To bring it back on-topic (while staying on the same topic), I didn't realise how even left-wing British comedians had been spreading that Fourth Reich narrative in stand-up comedy.

As well as general anti-EU rhetoric (Al Murray is playing a nationalistic right-wing charicature here in a tongue in cheek way that many actual nationalistic right-wingers take at face value, much to his dismay).

Well, I mean, the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor German, nor an Empire, so it's actually rather apt in many ways.

Hm. And what about the Hanseatic League for comparison?

Constantinople/Istanbul? Venezia? Paris?

Edited by Oruka on Jun 21st 2019 at 8:49:41 AM

I think people just use Empire as synonimous with "Powerful organization"

What would have been the second Rome?

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jun 21st 2019 at 4:46:15 PM

Byzantine? Britain?

I've heard the US called the second Rome, but not the third.

Historically, Second Rome is Constantinople AKA The Eastern Roman Empire. That it was unofficially called Nova Roma kind of hammers the point in with the subtlety of a war-hammer.

After it's collapse, an awful lot of people tried to claim legitimacy for their causes as being inheritors of Rome, or being the Third Rome.

Some absolute nutters still insist XYZ State is Third Rome. It's the ultimate example of Broken Base and YMMV.

Well, from the POV of the Native American nations, the comparison is not unwarranted.

Never said it would be favourable to the US.

The Padded Footstool Empire continued Byzance somewhat, didn't they?

Edited by Oruka on Jun 21st 2019 at 8:56:08 AM

Natives were treated far worse by the US than Rome treated most of its conquered states. For the most part it was fine letting them keep their culture intact so long as they accepted Roman superiority and Roman institutions. Of course, there were exceptions like the expulsion of Jews from Judea, but for the most part Rome was about assimilation rather than eradication.

The US set out to erase all Native cultures and genocide the people.

Edit: I’m saying the situations aren’t comparable. The US wasn’t pulling a Rome with the Natives, it was pulling an attempt at genocide.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Jun 21st 2019 at 8:58:52 AM

I do wonder if there a term for Global South people that wants the EU to fail, not because that think is bad, but because "Fuck Europeans."

THIRD WORLD RISING. EUROS WILL BE SUBJUGATED, THE TIME FOR JUSTICE HAS COME

So, Cartage.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 21st 2019 at 11:03:01 AM

Carthage would be a more apt comparison since Rome deliberately destroyed the culture, but I still don’t quite know if it fits the US/Native narrative due to the fact that part of the violence against Natives was territory motivated rather than ancient grudge/rivalry motivated motivated like Rome and Carthage.

The most opposition I’ve seen to the EU are the anti-globalization folks who don’t like cultural exchange, as a side note.

And of course left-wing comedy would spread that Fourth Reich crap. A lot of left-wingers also can't resist using the EU as a punching bag.

I'm explicitly asking about Third Worlders against the EU tho.

@Kazuya

Correct, and in Spanish I will add that the term doesn’t have an immediate negative connotation, it’s just a descriptive term.

@Golden

Constantinople, the New Rome, AKA The Byzantine Empire.

@Tech

The Third Rome is a term applicable to Tsarist Russia and arguably Spain after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks due to dynastic and title rights.

For the Russian side, this is derived from the various marriages that the Rurikids had with the Imperial family up until the end of the Byzantine Empire as well as their affinity with Orthodox Christianity.

In the case of Spain, the claim is attributed to the sell of the title of Emperor of Rome from the last Byzantine claimant to the Catholic Monarchs, which was the merged with title of Holy Roman Emperor under Charles I of Spain. Mind you, this was also done with France but one of the king of France explicitly renounced the title.

Wait, Empire as a word is seen as bad in english?

...uh.

So, is kinda like my story where the country founded for Americans gets worried when their allies decide to call thenselves a Confederation because MURICA and thus said allies have to sit down that they have nothing to do with the CSA.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 21st 2019 at 11:20:34 AM

It depends how you define a Hegemonic Empire.

Specifically, in this case as, "large powerful nation state or alliance that is expanding without violence."

@M84 Both sides have been happy to bash Europe in the UK for a WHILE. That first comedian, Marcus Brigstoke, has always been genuinely pro-European (and he's probably more center-left liberal than Corbyn-level left) but poking fun and or disparaging Europe has been mainstream since forever. It only started to reverse after Brexit, and people saw how damaging and pervasive it had always been.

That's not nearly specific enough for that term. A hegemonic empire needs a hegemon.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jun 21st 2019 at 5:25:36 PM

A hegemonic empire has to have a heartland from wich the decisions are taken and who's taking most of the benefits, with soft power over it's vassal states/protectorates/provinces/etc. If not, it's The Alliance.

In other words, it does rather depend on whether you define it wrongly or not