Netflix's The Dragon Prince

And they say CG is easier.

It's more cost effective once you have reached a certain quality level. But there is a reason why a lot of TV shows are still using traditional animation.

The thing is that certain level of quality requires a good deal of time & money to get right.

So CG really isn't that much a shortcut in the end.

Isn't it just a matter of letting the software render the in-between frames? I don't work in animation, so I'm not sure if you still have to manually animate stuff like mouth movements in dialogue.

Software is expensive...which is why I used the "at a certain quality level" marker. If you are a big movie studio, you can reuse and adjust the software. Btw Tangled was the most expensive animated movie of all time when it was made, but that was mainly because of the software used for the hair which has since then used so often, the investment really paid off.

IIRC, most of the difference is in simulating stuff like complex particle effects and fluid dynamics (including hair and fabric), which are often rendered separately and composited in post-production. The thing that's missing in The Dragon Prince is really basic character movements, which I'm sure isn't a software issue - it should just be a matter of letting the software handle the movement between the key frames.

CG is "easier" in that it allows you to do a lot of stuff that are extremely impractical in hand-drawn 2D. In the show, you see a lot of moving shots and close-ups that you don't generally see in traditional 2D. But that means that the animator had to do the extra work on the background assets and details to make everything look good for every angle, whereas in traditional 2D you only have to animate the stuff in the immediate frame.

Edited by eagleoftheninth on Sep 23rd 2018 at 2:31:03 AM

The thing about CG is once you have a model the rest becomes a lot easier. It’s making the model that’s the challenge.

On that note, what are the odds this sees a season 2?

Without knowing the numbers it is hard to tell. More buzz would be helpful, though.

Software should indeed do that, but from what I've seen, it either doesn't, or doesn't do it well enough.

It's worth remembering that CGI cartoons are made for much higher frame rates in general. The software might not be able to compensate / blurr / deform enough for the reduced frame rate they picked. That said, CGI is based on models, and there might be limitations to how much the software is allowed to deform a model (Where you might run the risk of weird rendering errors and stuff).

That said, without behind the scene info, it's hard to guess.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 23rd 2018 at 6:46:07 AM

@CG: I mean I find the CG in this show watchable and the backgrounds are done plrenty well.

If it was the same setting across multiple episodes its a lot easier to be able to go full beautiful with the CG, which is what Land of the Lustrous does with its genderless boygirl rock people and the same lovales but changes based on seasons. Though with the kind of toxic work place you find in eastern animation studios even when they do CG a part of me, uh, kind of prefers people being healthy over flawless animation. The fact they don't have to add much to backgrounds also helps.

And it's better than 2017 Berserk CG.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 23rd 2018 at 4:01:11 AM

Very long post incoming...

I'd argue that more fluid elements like liquid or hair and cloth are a lot easier to do in 2D Animation. Hair especially. There are ways in CG around it by having hair that becomes a 'helmet' (helmet hair, get it? :P). Not a big deail with shorter haircuts as the hair isn't likely to move very much, but longer hair becomes a real problem. You can get around it by doing things like braided hair so, instead of having to account for more strands, everything is mostly bound to 2 or 3 specific 'strands' that you can animate separately. This is the most likely reason Katara's hair is so braided during Season 1 of Avatar and then becomes this fuller and freer look in Season 3 with a lot more volume to it; The braids are easier to animate even in 2D but can eventually evolve into a more complex style.

But this means that longer hair is harder to engage with in CG. Where a team of animators might simply get a lot better at drawing the characters to a point where they can do more complex things, CG can't quite get there since it also requires processing power and rendering. Longer 'free' hair is harder to engage with. So we won't be seeing hair like S3!Katara or Disney's Esmerelda any time soon specifically for the reason of Claudia in this show; Her hair is long but never changes shape. It never really moves. We'll never see it say... splay out as she spins in a circle or flip over her head and shoulders as she get's blasted by the wind from behind. Because it will always have that singular oval shape. Which isn't always a bad thing; Meg from Hercules has a similarly consistent shape with a few exceptions.

And if they ever wanted to do that for some reason, they'd need to build an entire new model and rig to do that. Which costs a lot more assets than just simply giving an animator extra time to work hard on a few key frames. CG is really exonomical for animation that won't have major changes because it means you can reuse the sets, characters, and props over and over again. Or even duplicate your work if you have prop and character designs that need to be put all over a set (Like, say, a royal army with the same consistent design between soldiers). But it becomes less fesable that more you want to actually change about it and the more dynamic of a look you need.

https://www.animatorisland.com/defining-the-art-breaking-models/?v=7516fd43adaa Here's a quick article on breaking models in both 2D and CG animation. And here's the scene they refer to around 3:16 of this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EEn9qILaeU

On top of that, the low frame rate and focus on 'posing' without the smear frames inbetween mean that hair like Claudia's looks even worse because its more obvious how little it is moving compared to how much it SHOULD be moving.

http://penciltests.tumblr.com/ is a good reference for animation before its been cleaned up, colored, and fully rendered for presentation. They MOSTLY have Disney pencil tests, but its still a good place to get an idea for how much the model will shifted, bend, and squash to create different expressions. Some of their posts are also still pictures of each frame in a movement follwed by a gif of all frames together.

http://penciltests.tumblr.com/post/109470132242/randyhaycock-a-kristoff-test-this-was-to-test#notes Here's one post of there's using Kristoff from Frozen back when they were still figuring out his character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDfk2hmIAas Here's a pencil test of Kida from Atlantis. If you're not quite getting what I mean, watch her jaw and mouth shape as she speaks. Its not 'natural' exactly, but its saying a lot about the passion and emotion behind the words which conveys more to the audience. Compared to Dragon Prince where the lips, mouth, and jaw are all locked together which means that they can't quite change shape as need be.

And, for fun reference, Here's Zuko getting hit with a boomerang in Episode 1 of Avatar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkwVjNTc9dk Look how the eye's bulge and mouth change as he gets hit.

If I were to reanimate parts of Dragon Prince... Let's take the scene where Claudia confronts the main trio after they find the Egg in episode 3.

When Claudia asks for Ez to come forward... Drop her shoulders a bit, change her eye shape to a softer circle and put her right arm into a gentle limp gesture of calling him forward. Before transitioning back to the more hostile stance. She wants him to come, so no need to keep her glaring at him.

Or, when Rayla gives the line 'Its not a weapon! It's an egg!", I'd drop her to a little more of a hunched position, kind of taken a back by the accusation, squint her eyes, and perhaps gesture and point to the egg with her sword. Not a strong point; she isn't theatening Ez, but a gesture. Possibly this gesture is what brings Claudia back onto the offensive?

The problem is that we're either missing key gestures or expressions or that the gestures and expressions aren't strong enough to convey as much as we really should.

Also, I finally figured out why some of the faces like Marcus and Callum bug the crap out of me; Their noses keep getting lost on their face and it send them into Uncanny Valley.

Edited by InkDagger on Sep 23rd 2018 at 4:35:45 AM

The actual cleaned up Blu-Ray version? It's close, closer than it should be for a big multimedia launch.

That being said, it's not really fair to compare a kid-focused fantasy series to freaking Berserk.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 23rd 2018 at 7:45:23 AM

Well good to know the Blu Ray version is watchable enough I don't need to stab my eyes out to end my suffering. But hardly a comfort especially for viewers watching it when it came out.

But bad CG should be compared regardless of what it is. Like Golden Kamuy which had ridiculous Fire and Evil Bad CG Bears being attacked by Good Bad CG Wolves.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 23rd 2018 at 4:52:14 AM

Is the CG better or worse than the one in the anime Godzilla movies by Polygon Pictures?

Kamuys CG was so hilarious bad it was charming in its silly appearance. Especially as they used it just in the first couple episodes for the bears and the wolf in that fight. The wolf is never in CG otherwise.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 23rd 2018 at 5:00:00 AM

x3 I meant storywise. Callum and Guts really can't be compared. At all. It's like "Sure Berserk is better. One's a story for a family with a silly lead, and one's a bloody manga adaptation for adults starring a Memetic Badass."

The fact is the animation still looks ugly because while screenshots are fine, the movement is messed up.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 23rd 2018 at 8:07:59 AM

And I never compared them storywise. So I dont see why that gets mentioned when it wasn't my concern.

That was more so it didn’t seem like I was comparing them. No offense was meant.

The animation complaint is not a small section of the audience either. There are a lot of people saying this is a problem.

Do they have a panel at NYCC? We might learn more then.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 23rd 2018 at 8:26:44 AM

I REALLY hope that they don't double down like they did in the interviews and talk about how great and amazing the animation is.

Guy, I know you tried something. And I like that you tried something. I would rather creators try something new that doesn't work than be lazy and get lazy results. But it didn't work. Even the people who are ok with the animation as is, they probably will stick it out if you were to change the animation for Season 2. With the potential of getting more people to watch it if the animation turned them off it in the first place.

At least address some of the legitimate animation problems that people are seeing with this attempt. Like the squash and stretch or have the lower frame rate means that arrows look slow or that some blows lose their impact because we can't drop the frame rate to give something more impact or a differerent beat.

I kinda get the impression they may have been trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear by spinning cost-cutting measures as an artistic choice.

...Is it okay to include Runaan bursting through the door, firing off three arrows in quick succession at apparently no one and letting out a frankly weird-sounding kiai under Narm? Like it would've probably been badass had we seen those arrows bringing down some Red Shirts, but without that it looks like a needlessly flashy entrance.

But the thing is, in 2018, I don't see reducing the frames as a cost cutting measure. Plenty of shows, some produced VERY cheaply, manage a higher frame rate. And the show's not using alot of the other common cost cutting features you'd see in CG. For example, the number of character models isn't low. The show doesn't even resort to faceless henchmens for the generic guards or knights, which is usually a giant go-to for cost cutting features. It'd have been easy to give everyone face concealing helmets and save by using the same model, but the show generally avoids it. Similarly, the show has a lot of different backgrounds - again, something that'd be easy to cut down to reduce cost (Fans of Transformers Prime for example will remember the season 1 "Always in a beige canyon" fight scenes - a clear cost cutting measure)

While yes the animation is a bit stiff, that's something I expect we'll see evolve. As the show goes on, their repertoire of model postures, facial expressions, and the quality of their models, will go up. What concerns me is the low frame rate decision which they really seem to think was a positive artistic decision... and I hope to god they go back on that.

I also noticed the bowstring moved, but the actual bow itself didn't seem to bend. Which isn't how a long bow works. The bow needs to bend to launch the arrow. That's why bows require so much upper body strength. This is coming from someone who does archery.

Its a low resource technique used in a lot of video games since it'd take resources to animate the actual bending, but its easy to see when its dead center on the frame.

Edited by InkDagger on Sep 23rd 2018 at 7:26:14 AM

Meh, plenty of 2d shows don't do that either. Heck, I know live actions show that don't. I can give it a weak pass the same way I give swordfights ending in Bloodless Carnage a pass.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 23rd 2018 at 10:24:21 AM

If its a live action show, then its probably a Compound Bow which wouldn't do that bending thing and actually does extend the drawstring.

You'd think so. Sometimes It's "Don't break the prop"