Catalan Referendum

The EU has no authority over the matter whatsoever.

Remember, the current Spanish state is continuous with Franco's fascist regime. Rajoy's party was founded by a fascist minister, his own father was a lawyer member of the fascist party, and the state job he got at a very early age happened as his father dealt with a case that would have tarnished the fascist party if some key evidence and witness didn't disappear all of sudden.

Corrupt fascist egotistical tyrant.

EDIT: Merkel allegedly phoned Rajoy. Apparently police brutality winded down just afterwards.

edited 1st Oct '17 2:29:18 PM by Eriorguez

I'm not sure there is much the EU can do, unless some countries are gutsy enough to want to send in peacekeepers or place sanctions on the Spanish government, which is something I don't see happening.

I'm afraid that in the end most countries will back the Spanish government in whatever they ultimately do, up too and including a bloody and violent suppression of Catalonia in it's entirety.

edited 1st Oct '17 2:33:09 PM by Mio

I get the feeling nobody ever learned subtlety.

The parliament can't really take any position, but support constitutional order (as per EU founding principles) while condemning the violence (which I think they recently did). The Commission has no authority regarding internal political issues.

This will be dealt through backchannels.

edited 1st Oct '17 2:34:43 PM by TerminusEst

EU has a standard policy for cases like this. Every region which leaves an EU state is also automatically leaving the EU. Also, the EU isn't in the habit of interfering in local politics as long as there isn't an outright war happening. And it certainly won't jump in now that the situation is overly heated. It will wait until the worst is over and then talk to the parties involved.

edited 1st Oct '17 2:34:39 PM by Swanpride

£5 says the Brexiters will attack the EU for not intervening in this mess.....

Already saw it being used as a reason to not be part of the EU: "This is the kind of stuff that happens in the EU."

edited 1st Oct '17 2:44:22 PM by Eriorguez

Which is the worst possible response if Catalonia does unilaterally declare independence and invites a military response.

...............are they getting dumber of just louder?

edited 1st Oct '17 2:46:26 PM by FieldMarshalFry

Of course, if the EU did intervene, they'd be foaming from the mouth about the brutal iron fist of Brussels, ruthlessly invading the inner politics of poorer countries in the periphery, violating their sovereignty yadda yadda yadda

It's all so damn typical.

edited 1st Oct '17 2:50:29 PM by LogoP

I have no love for independantists in general but I think Rajoy couldn't have made a better case for Catalonian independance if he'd try. Fucking idiot.

Pretty much this

The thing is, Spanish nationalism has been trying to pull an homogenization deal for too long. And, after all, Galicia, Asturias-Leon, Castille (incluiding Cantabria, Extremadura and Murcia), Andalusia, Euskalherria, Portugal, and the Aragonese, Catalonian and Valencian Countries FEEL different from each other.

I am an Iberian unionist. I do believe having a single state in the penninsula would be the best for all of us. But I do not think the Kingdom of Spain is that state. As Castelao said, "wannabe imperialists". I am truly ashamed of what I've seen today.

Link is broken, have a working one.

In regards to internal matters, all this debacle serves as a convenient smokescreen or distraction for certain corruption cases that are ongoing, both by some Catalan politicians, as well as members of Rajoy's party.

The current steps that are being taken by the Spanish government make everyone madder: the pro-referendum people because they see a clear abuse of lawful force, the anti-referendum people because they think it's not enough, and other Spanish people who: a) benefit from live in other regions and benefit from Catalunya's money (Catalunya being one of the better regions, economically speaking); b) have long ago realised that they're being governed by a bunch of lazy, histrionic, overreacting, short-sighted and generally incompetent people who so far have done nothing but pointlessly escalating this conflict instead of actually trying to solve it.

Spanish people who are pro-referendum and anti-independence (such as football player Piqué) are disappointed at this whole state of affairs, not only in regards to the behaviour by the central government, but also to the unilateral threats of secession/independence by the Catalan Generalitat, which they think are a bit too histrionic as well.

There have been claims by Spanish and/or Catalan citizens within Catalunya who are pro-union that they've been attacked or silenced by other citizens in the public squares and streets (the same has also happened vice-versa, as a response to these first attacks and attempts at social silence/ostracism/exclusion).

From a legal sense, the central government could have easily pointed out all the legal and bureaucratic mistakes done by the Generalitat, which would have peacefuly undermined the independist cause. But, then again, there's the other problem: History.

The Catalan revolt showed the first stirrings of the Catalan sentiment, in a day and age where things were different, and where the factors were temporarily in their favour (such as my country getting rid of that short-lived Iberian Union and restoring independence). From then on, things wouldn't be good. The revolt was crushed, the local language and culture was suppressed or swept under the rug (especialy under the Franco regime).

While the current Spanish regime does have some people and partial institutions that have links to Franquistas, there are also enough breaks that separate them. Yes, some of Rajoy's connections have a dirty past. But there wasn't also a lot of openness (or even talks) from the center-left party (PSOE), when Felipe González was in power ^note  there were illegal operations done against ETA in the Basque region, and the current president of the Generalitat in Catalunya, Carles Puigdemont was arrested in 1992, during the Olympic Games, as part of Operation Garzón - an operation that consisted of the arrest of 45 personalities involved with the Catalan independentist case. There's more of a fundamental problem (one which involves ignorance, inertia, arrogance and, yes, some malice) with the way the Spanish state and its regions were gathered, rather than simply pointing out fingers and say 'right-wingers are evil'. The Catalan cause is one that is rooted in both history (including rose-tinted and dark-tinted sides of collective memory within Spain) and in the inadequacies located within the Spanish constitution.

On the other hand, there's a matter of: who should vote in a referendum? People who interpret the Constitution in a legalistic sense hold that the referendum should be held by all the peoples of Spain. The Catalan politicians dislike this, because they know that their cause would be defeated. A referendum held solely by the Catalans also conflicts with the way the Constitution was written and the elements concerning the autonomy of regions/communities, which don't give the kind of leeway that would allow a referendum on their terms to be held.

To sum up this point: the Catalan government would not accept a referendum held across Spain (because they know they would lose), and the central government would not accept a referendum held solely by Catalans (because of legal conflicts and the fear/suspicion that the Catalan pro-independentist cause would win).

To hold a referendum is often held up as a sign of the (supposed) virtues of democracy. However, most democracies don't have the tradition that, say, Switzerland has, in regards to referendums, and the fact that people interpret democracy and its results in a very 'my way or the highway' fashion. There are two different perspectives between the Spanish central government and the Catalan Generalitat in regards to democracy. From a purely legalistic sense, it's the former who are more right. From a historical and moral viewpoint, it's the latter who are more right. Thus, we have an (unbalanced) conflict between someone who's right, and someone who's right.

The actions held out by the Spanish central government and the police forces in these past few days are deplorable, while also being ineffective (because they are small in terms of asserting authority, which lead to a greater outcry in light of the improvement of economic and social life in Catalunya in these past few decades - the Tocqueville effect is more or less at play here, though, hopefully, there won't be a need for a revolution). The actions of the Catalan government ramped up in recent times, in light of these actions.

Most people (particularly outside the Iberian peninsula, including within this very thread) are not aware of the complexities within the Spanish democracy and its problems (some of them merely current, some long-standing but which are not being talked about, and some which are both). Even I'm far from giving the full picture here, because I haven't presented a fully neutral and fully informed perspective here.

There are political and historical views and philosophies at conflict here within Spain (not only within Catalunya, but also within the Basque country, and, to a lesser extent, within Galicia - in the case of the latter, there are people who want to remain part of Spain, people who want to be independent, and people who want to leave Spain, but also to join Portugal). There are left-wingers who are for and against independence, right-wingers who are mostly aganinst independence, yes, but also a few who want to conduct the referendum in a democratic fashion (both in a legalistic sense, and/or in a moral sense).

This is an internal matter, first and foremost, and, as long as there's no proven breaks with the EU charters, the EU won't interfere. At best, there will be influent voices who will suggest to tone things down a little (e.g. Merkel), but those are voices which are located within other national governments - some of whom have to deal with independentist causes and difficult balances of autonomy in their own nations. A consequence of the way the EU is arranged doesn't allow for full sovereignity, but also no supremacy of the EU institutions in all matters of political and social life. For better or worse.

So, the question is: how can this mess by solved by Spanish and Catalan politicians, on both sides, and on neither?

Unless some massive economic or resources-related problem arises, I doubt there will be an unified Iberian state. And, based on History, that ship has long ago sailed away, since we had to get independent from Spain. Twice (1143 and 1640). In fact, if I had to choose between an United Europe (something I don't really like) and an unified Iberia, I'd rather pick the former (my views in regards to this point of yours are historical and political, in light of the patriotic and/or nationalist conscience within my city, from where the first King of Portugal began the process of independence, during the 12th century), if it ends up being really necessary.

In fact, I think that Galicia should leave Spain and join us the Portuguese, due to cultural and linguistic roots in common, as well as the relatively decent economic connections. An unified Iberia has been attempted in the past. It was, imo, horrible for us, due to the greater prominence of the Castillian monarchs.

edited 1st Oct '17 4:36:12 PM by Quag15

You also forgot about the issue in the various UN articles (or whatever they're called) about people having a right to self determination and what this means without regards to modern nations. Particularly in a situation such as this, where one side tautologically works out as "regardless of what's said, it's part of Spain because it's part of Spain even though it claims to not want to be".

Though the right to self-determination is also quite humorously in conflict with attempts to end all colonialism.

Oh, absolutely. But, to be honest, most nations don't give a fuck about the UN charter, and will leave such rights aside for the sake of political, diplomatic and economic gains (for better or worse). Otherwise, causes such as that of Iraqi Kurdistan would have been immediately supported by nations around the world. But dictatorships and most democracies don't want that to happen, in light of independentist causes within their own territories.

If right to self-determination existed practically in full, nations such as Spain, France, China, Russia, the United Kingdom or the US woud either radically change or cease to exist as we know them today.

edited 1st Oct '17 4:13:16 PM by Quag15

That was a great and nuanced explanation of the issues here, thank you Quag.

Seems like local Catalan officers showed hesitation to use force.

Otherwise, 42% turned to vote with 90% saying yes according to those who checked the polls.

I think the UK is one of those nations actually generally using it (current government excepted), since it underpins the Good Friday Agreement, we actually had an independence referendum (with a simple majority and no turnout requirement for some reason), and, of course, it's the reason we still have a perpetual argument with Spain over Gibraltar and Argentina over the Falkands.

@Quag: To clarify, I don't mean that someone's an authoritarian for opposing independance. Or even opposing a referendum, necessarily (although, being Swiss, I always favor them). I do not know nearly enough about the subject to say if Catalonia should or shouldn't become independent.

No, what appals me are the thuggish methods used by the Spanish government. That's just not worthy of any democracy.

Not exactly the most ringing endorsement for independence with that low turn-out. Not that it matters at this point.

edited 1st Oct '17 4:47:43 PM by Mio

Which is why if you're doing this properly you'd best include some sort of turnout threshold for a result to be valid.

Still, 40% turnout when the government is trying to prevent it from happening at all is something.

I had no clue Spain was this messed up that they resorted to Police Brutality to stop a referendum. Worthy of a dictatorship. I thought Spain was like fine. What happened?

x6

With Wales being a notable exception as we're not allowed individual representation as part of the Union due to the way we were conquered (we have to be represented by English symbols and law, which is why Wales does not appear on the Union Flag) and, more crucially, the way we saved our language and culture even when it was illegal for us to speak our own language and practice our own traditions. (The short version is that a formal commission to translate the Bible into Welsh single-handedly saved the language by enabling ecclesiastical need to circumvent the illegality of speaking Welsh in daily life.)

I don't know enough about Catalan to know if independence is in their long-term best interests. However, no government should ever respond to a desire for a referendum the way the Spanish government has done so here.

edited 1st Oct '17 5:06:06 PM by Wyldchyld