That One Boss and That One Level cleanup.

ThatOneLevel.Platform Game lists the entire game of Prince Of Persia, which strikes me as another trope (also, since the game has level passwords and a save function, it's really not that hard).

It also laments that Bubble Bobble has a bad ending, which also sounds like a different trope.

If every level is That One Level, no level is.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Nov 12th 2020 at 11:44:59 AM

Any Genshin Impact players?

• Lupus Boreas can be this for any player without a decent ranged attacker. The first phase of the fight isn't too difficult, as Boreas gives a lot of time to attack and his own attacks are easily read and dodged. The second phase, however, ramps up the difficulty by having Boreas move extremely quickly, darting about the field and attacking constantly, summoning shadow wolves that strike every few seconds (and attack more frequently as the battle goes on), and has brutal counters for anyone that gets up close. You basically need a unit that can keep moving while attacking from a distance, so anyone without a decent archer has little choice but to rush Boreas and tank the damage while trying to bring him down before your health and/or food run out.
  • He becomes worse if you're doing this in Co-Op, even when you have more people to damage him. Put simply, entering your menu does not pause the game in Co-Op, meaning going into your inventory to heal isn't safe at all when Lupus Boreas is constantly throwing out attacks that take off 1/2-1/4 of your health per hit. Without safe and reliable healing, you pretty much cannot get hit, which ramps up the difficulty up quite a bit. Barbara and Xingqiu also don't work either due to them applying Hydro to themselves when healing and Lupus Boreas applying Cryo so... (While Qiqi and Jean would do fine, they're in the 5* non-focus pool, so they're pretty hard to come by).

I initially deleted the part about co-op and healing but I see they put it back in. While Lupus Boreas is arguably the hardest boss at the moment and deserves an entry, the footnote seems like natter to me. Mostly because version 1.1 added a gadget that lets you heal outside the menu, but also because the eating food in co-op issue is something all boss fights struggle with, not just this one in particular. And I think the point of co-op is that you can have a dedicated healer, and Bennett and Diona are now available as cheap and reliable healers that won't get frozen like Barbara.

So to avoid an edit war, can I get some input on this?

Edited by Stage7-4 on Nov 17th 2020 at 10:13:39 AM

A lot of the examples on ThatOneLevel.Super Mario Bros describe Brutal Bonus Levels (including the page image). Should they all be cut?

Edited by CasualChris on Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:07:09 AM

Probably.

Well, if the page image describes a Brutal Bonus Level, I'll bring it to IP.

The image has horrid quality so it needs an IP thread anyway.

(x7) Prince of Persia 1 has some legitimate That One Levels, which could be listed instead of "the entire game".

Level 8 begins with a fight against a Puzzle Mook; defeating him requires parrying, which most players won't have bothered with for the entire game up to this point. It has one of the toughest "get to the gate before it closes" sections in the game, and ends with another weird puzzle (a gate that you can't open yourself, and have to wait for the mouse from the pre-level cutscene; I thought this was pretty obvious but apparently a lot of people get stuck here).

Level 10 has a really nasty section where you have to get past two choppers, above temporary floor so you can't just tiptoe past each one but have to make a precisely timed jump. Maybe not enough to qualify?

Level 12 is a tower climb in which you have to go from one side to the other several times, making a series of precise jumps; any fall will send you crashing to the bottom of the level. It climaxes with a notorious Puzzle Boss in the form of your mirror image, who can only be defeated by sheathing your sword so that he does the same.

I might have a go at giving these a proper write-up, unless someone else gets to it first. It's a very long time since I played the game, though.

The trope is Nintendo Hard.

No gen 8 entries for Pokémon That One Boss yet? I know of one

• Zygarde in the Crown Tundra raid dens. It has Land’s Wrath and Thousand Arrows, both of which hit all Pokémon not protected by an ability or something like Wide Guard. It also has the ability Power Construct, which transforms it into complete forme and restores some of its health. It can be a pain to defeat, particularly if you’re relying on npc luck

Edit: or is that Bonus Boss since it’s not part of the main story?

Edited by chicagomel on Dec 14th 2020 at 1:19:44 PM

Prince of Persia really isn't Nintendo Hard though. I'll stop being lazy and improve the write-up. Also, I'll go ahead with trimming the Lemmings page since no-one has responded to my suggestions (on the previous page now).

Edited by Vilui on Dec 14th 2020 at 11:22:54 AM

Can someone go ahead and take a look at the folder for Super Mario Run on ThatOneLevel.Super Mario Bros? I've never played it, but most (if not all) of the examples in it sound like either That One Sidequest or Brutal Bonus Level.

Does That One Level count if the level is explicitly labeled as hard?

ThatOneLevel.Bloons Tower Defense has many examples, but some of the tracks are in the Expert or Extreme categories in the game, so they are intended to be hard. I was thinking to move them to Brutal Bonus Level, but due to the non-linear format of the game, pretty much all levels are optional, so I dunno if they count.

As I've brought up before I think, several of the BTD 6 Advanced Challenges need to be moved to Unwinnable by Mistake since they were completely unbeatable, period. (Admission of guilt: I originally erroneously put them under That One Level.)

I'd like to bring up Hollow Knight, since I removed an entry earlier today, and that reminded me that the rest of the entries might need some trimming too.

Bosses:

• Soul Master — valid, but the long aside about his second form could be trimmed.
• Flukemarm — valid.
• Dream bosses (Failed Champion, Lost Kin, Soul Tyrant, Grey Prince Zote) — disqualify under the bonus boss rule?
• Hornet — valid.
• Traitor Lord — does he count as a bonus boss? He is the "main" boss of Queen's Gardens but the entire area is optional to completing the game.
• Radiance — True Final Boss. Probably not hard enough, by final boss standards, to qualify.
• Pantheon forms of Collector, Markoth, Uumuu — the entire Godhome area is optional, but these bosses do stand out within it. Okay or not?

Levels:

• Path of Pain — kind of the level equivalent of a bonus boss. Are these okay?
• Pantheon of Hallownest — not a level. Move to That One Achievement.

Still don't like the bonus boss thing there and don't see it as a bad myself. I also think Radiance can be troped under this

I am honestly not sure why the bonus boss rule exists as well, since, in layman's terms, to me That One Boss is "boss that is hard", and quite a few bonus bosses (but not all, as say in Hollow Knight Gorb is bonus yet super easy) are "bosses that are hard".

There's also the problem that in some games, the difference between non-bonus and bonus is poorly defined. Say, in Terraria:Calamity, several of the pre-hardmode and pre-moonlord bosses are cited on the main page as a TOB, and would generally not be considered a bonus boss, yet if you consider the endgame to be "defeat Supreme Calamitas", then it's perfectly possible to not fight them ever. Back to the Hollow Knight example, if you consider your endgame to be the true final boss ending, then at least some of the dream bonus bosses are very much NOT optional, as you need an ascended dream nail for the main quest, which implies not skipping at least four "bonus" bosses (well technically you could, but you'd need to grind for days upon days).

The same logic applies to That One Level, although for levels there is a distinction between "Bonus level and not necessarily hard" (Secret Level) and "Bonus level AND hard" (Brutal Bonus Level). Should a similar distinction made for bonus bosses?

Edit: I also wish to notice that most of the TOB for Epic Battle Fantasy 5 are unambiguous bonus bosses (that is, no special thing happens if you beat them except getting more loot, no special ending, heck they're not even fightable at all in some versions). The list is: Neon Valhalla, Telperion, Crystal Hydra, and all evil players. I'd also suggest removing Neon Valkyrie, not because it's a bonus boss, but because it's not hard enough to qualify: even on epic, it's pretty easy to win on your first try.

Edited by towerator on Jan 5th 2021 at 6:18:49 AM

Okay, I've been a bit hasty in jumping in here, so I've looked around a bit to try to gather all the pieces together.

There is currently an ongoing discussion thread aimed at getting a wick check for Bonus Boss for TRS. From what I gather, the overall consensus is pretty much as Serac summed up: "In any case, I think the idea was that we would rename Bonus Boss to Superboss, launch three new tropes called Secret Boss, Optional Boss, and Route Boss, and make Bonus Boss a redirect to Optional Boss, the supertrope that would have links to all of the subtropes."

Superboss would then be the only type prohibited from being That One Boss; other optional bosses could remain.

Hollow Knight is a weird case because nearly all of its 44 bosses are optional; a mere four bosses (Hornet, Watcher Knights, Uumuu and the final boss) are actually required to beat the game. If you go for the true ending, four more bosses are required (Broken Vessel, Hornet 2, Traitor Lord, Radiance) and you need 1300 Essence from bosses (500 can come from whispering roots + ghosts). However, there are twelve bosses that give Essence, from 100 to 400 each, so no individual one of these is required.

Nightmare King Grimm and Absolute Radiance are unambiguously Superbosses. I'd say the other Pantheon final bosses are too, since the entire Godhome area is optional, doesn't unlock anything, and is only there to give the player an extra challenge.

All other bosses would come under different subtropes of Optional Boss, or maybe (like Flukemarm) just under Optional Boss but not any subtrope. At least, that's how I would classify them right now, but we'll have to see how the Bonus Boss split ends up going.

Edited by Vilui on Jan 5th 2021 at 9:40:06 AM

Yeah, this is a reason I kinda think leaving this trope as just the super hard bosses by flaw or difficulty even with a bit of overlap is best

While I'm not still not convinced the split between bonus boss and TOB is needed, does that make the superboss trope effectively "Bonus Boss AND hard"?

In that case, here's my take on the various Pantheon bosses.

-Oro and Mato: Not the easiest bosses in the game, but not very difficult either => Not superboss

-Sheo: Similar difficulty => Not superboss

-Sly: Definitely a step-up above the others, but still well below normal Radiance in term of difficulty => Not superboss?

-Pure Vessel: Extremely difficult, even compared to the Radiance => superboss

-Winged Nosk: Easy => Not superboss

-Sisters of Battle: Frantic but not that hard to master => borderline case

-Abs Rad: Insanely hard => Definitely Superboss

However, what I don't really like in this system is that I feel like this would basically mean we'd have a different trope for "hard and you need to beat it" and "hard and you don't need to beat it" which, to me, feels superfluous.

Edit: this makes me realize, if this "superboss" trope ever comes to be, as it implies a part of partial judgement (namely: "Is this boss hard or not?"), this would make it a YMMW.

Edit 2: Reading the original discussion, a "Route" is more or less described as "A way to get an ending". Under this definition, isn't there a risk that you could define HK's routes as this:

-THK route: Get mantis claw, monarch wings, crystal dash/Isma's tear, beat all 3 dreamers, beat THK

-Dream No More/Sealed Siblings route: Same as before but get Void Heart, beat all 3 dreamers, beat THK, optionally beat Rad

-Embrace The Void/Delicate Flower route: Get as much charms/movement as possible, get Void Heart, optionally do flower quest with godseeker, Enter Godhome, beat all 5 Pantheons.

Using this (admittedly arguable) definition the Pantheon bosses wouldn't be considered superbosses...

Edited by towerator on Jan 5th 2021 at 1:49:25 AM

The new "Superboss" page would inherit the description and definition currently on Bonus Boss, maybe with tweaks. So: "a type of Optional Boss which serves to test players' mettle" and "The key features are that defeating one isn't necessary to complete the game, and they require quite a bit of conscious effort to find. Their usual habitat is the end of a Bonus Dungeon, Brutal Bonus Level, sidequest, or Boss Rush."

Oro and Mato would be in a grey area because Pantheon 1 is certainly a Boss Rush (and one that is difficult to find and unlock) and they are certainly at the end of it; but it's a rush of early-game bosses that you're expected to leave until you have late-game equipment, and the whole thing is just a warm-up for the later pantheons. Doesn't really matter for the current discussion, as no-one has proposed listing them for That One Boss.

I would assume it's still safe to consider Absolute Radiance a Superboss even though you get an ending after her, since she very clearly meets all the other criteria (in an optional area, designed as an extra hard challenge, last boss in the last and hardest Boss Rush).

Thinking about it, HK does have at least one example of an unambiguous Superboss: GPZ.

-GPZ is in an optional area (Bretta's house)

-GPZ isn't needed for any ending (he can appear in Godhome, but this isn't even guaranteed as he won't if you don't save Zote); getting from 2800 to 3200 essence isn't required for anything, not even to get closure in the Seer's storyline.

-GPZ is difficult, especially past his 3rd iteration. The 10th, which falls just shy of walloping your entire health in one hit, is definitely harder than both THK and Rad.

I feel like, to prevent ambiguity, the superboss shouldn't be required to complete the game in any way, emphasis mine.

Edited by towerator on Jan 5th 2021 at 2:50:16 AM

Grey Prince Zote's first incarnation isn't that hard, though — less difficult than Sly, who we've already said may or may not count. It's certainly true that his last few incarnations are among the hardest fights in the game, and completely optional for everything (his third form is the one that appears in the pantheons), so I'd support there being some sort of entry that mentions how hard the fights are; and Superboss seems the best place, even if it's a little weird to have to specify "the last few times you fight him". (Though I guess it's not any stranger than listing Uumuu's Godhome-specific fight under That One Boss.)

I think the least ambiguous Superboss in the game is Nightmare King Grimm — he's at the end of an optional sidequest that starts in a secret area; he's much harder than the final boss; beating him isn't connected with an ending. (He does appear in the Pantheon of Hallownest, but you don't have to beat him in the main game to unlock him in the Pantheon.)

Alright, so let's sum up all the candidates under the new lights in the discussion:

Late GPZ: Unambiguous superboss

Late WD: Unambiguous superboss

NKG: Unambiguous superboss prior to Godmaster, now must be fought for an ending, still probably counts due to the overworld version not being needed.

PV: Ambiguous superboss: harder than True Final Boss AND must go out of the way to be found, but beating it significantly impacts the story, because it releases...

AbsRad: Very ambiguous superboss: harder than True Final Boss AND must go out of the way to be found, but beating her has drastic consequences on the ending (Ghost becomes Shade Lord, THK survives). If some of the WMG about Silksong is true, and Embrace the Void becomes the canon ending, I think we can agree that would make her a full True Final Boss.

Edited by towerator on Jan 5th 2021 at 4:04:25 AM

Okay, so someone unilaterally deleted all the Bloodborne DLC bosses despite us having decided to leave them. Nobody mind a reversion here? I'm kind of frustrated about that, and the descriptions for this trope are seemingly getting no better, since only Bonus Boss is banned, which DLC doesn't fall under on its own, and we've indicated particularly difficult Bonus Bosses can qualify.