Condemned by History cleanup thread

Found it.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:58:16 PM by Spinosegnosaurus77

EDIT: Wait, It's fixed. Don't worry!

edited 28th Jun '16 1:59:10 PM by harryhenry

Alright, let's give the comics page a look...

• The Comics Code Authority: Keep, remembered only as a cautionary tale about censorship.
• Silver Age Superboy: Keep, best known for its narm nowadays.
• Dreamwave Transformers: Keep; imploded under the weight of its own shady business practices.
• WildStorm: Definitely sounds promising but I don't know much about it. Any takers?
• Ultimate Marvel: Keep, and a very good encapsulation of the trope; popular once, then quickly went belly up and now has people wondering why they ever liked it to begin with.
• Chuck Austen: KEEP. I'm not sure much more needs to be said, but suffice to say he's often considered the worst superhero genre writer, period.
• Identity Crisis: Keep, another good encapsulation; sold like hotcakes, now remembered mainly for the bad-taste shock value plot twists and people suggesting it made the DCU Jump the Shark for a while.
• Crisis Crossovers: Eh, too general for me. Leaning cut.
• Sonic stuff: No idea; any help?
• Romance comics: Leaning keep, but are any positively looked back on?
• Rob Liefeld: Definite keep; often said to have played a major role in ruining a whole decade of comics.
• Image superheroes: No idea, but note the entry mentions MacFarlane, who was cut.
• Tintin in the Congo: Keep; only ever talked about for the Values Dissonance now.

For what it's worth, LaptopGuy's post about the hip-hop page missed two examples: DMX & Far East Movement. I'd cut the former (more forgotten than hated) and keep the latter (punchline), but I'd appreciate feedback.

I'd agree with cutting DMX; there was definitely a backlash against him for a while, but not a strong or universal enough one for DtD status IMO. I know some folks who still like him just fine, and his music still shows up in the occasional licensed soundtrack (in my local theater's showing of Deadpool, "X Gonna Give It to Ya" was met with cheers).

I'm not sure about Ultimate Marvel; most agree that it jumped the proverbial shark after a certain point, but AFAIK the early stuff, especially Ultimate Spider-Man, is still reasonably well-regarded. I'll leave it to more dedicated comics fans than myself to make the final call, but if my personal experience is any indication, it's fallen off but not quite DtD material.

It's been my experience that when it comes to Ultimate, Spidey's the exception, not the rule. Even the earlier stuff, especially the Mark Millar-written parts, is viewed much more negatively these days than it was before.

Responding to @Largo Quagmire:

I cut the other sounds above. The Bro-country entry can probably be reworked to show how it seems more that bro-country has killed traditional styled country, which is certainly on its last legs.

Rodney Atkins has a serious hatedom in country circles due to his weird voice and overly narrow subject matter, and you hear literally none of his songs except If You're Going Through Hell. I trimmed the Toby example.

I cut the intro, plus Martina and Jo Dee as while they both have hatedoms, they both still have fans. Faith seems to have been swept under the rug, so I think she can stay.

Lady A has not had a #1 hit in several years and is on hiatus while Charles is going solo. Their last few singles totally bombed, and Golden in particular was torn apart by critics.

Lonestar has a serious hatedom for their narm, and almost no one in the fandom respects them anymore — seeing them only as a band who

Muzik Mafia I cut. They did shape the rock sound that's still there, and are more a victim of novelty than anything else.

edited 28th Jun '16 9:57:32 PM by Twentington

Re: Avril Lavigne - I actually started writing out this post with the intention to advocate for keeping her (ended up deleting a rather large paragraph about how nobody I know will admit to liking her music when it came out without qualifying it with something like "I know my music taste sucked back then" and how almost everyone had forgotten that she was still recording music until "Hello Kitty" came out), but now I'm not sure. We're going to be entering the period of 2000s nostalgia in a few years, and maybe people will have softened their feelings about her music. But I think it's very likely that "Hello Kitty" has damaged her reputation to the point that even the inevitable forces of nostalgia won't be able to redeem her music in most people's eyes.

While I personally think she fits the criteria right now, I won't be upset if she's cut. The "safest" way to go would be to wait until 2020 when everyone starts rediscovering 2000s pop culture, but I'd hope we'd have moved on from this by then. So as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter what we do with her entry.

Re: other stuff -

I hate Family Guy, but the fact that it's still airing precludes it from being DTD.

I have no opinions either way about the Jonas Brothers, anything on the hip-hop subpage, Phineas & Ferb, or the comic book stuff. Sinead O'Connor might count from what I've heard about the SNL incident, but I'd rather we focus on cleaning up what's already on the pages before adding new examples.

Looking at your post, I think you might not quite understand what Deader Than Disco means. Keep in mind that I know almost nothing about country music (even though I live in the southern US, cultural osmosis only goes so far), so all I really have to go on is what's already on the page and what's been said in this thread.

"The Bro-country entry can probably be reworked to show how it seems more that bro-country has killed traditional styled country, which is certainly on its last legs."

It's not enough for something to not be popular anymore. It has to be a target of derision and scorn by people who previously liked it. Do people look down on traditional country as a result of bro-country? If not, then there's no reason to keep anything about bro-country on the page. I'm wondering the same thing about Faith Hill—you say that she can stay because she was "swept under the rug" (which to me just says "forgotten", not "deader than disco"), but from my perspective, what I've seen about her here doesn't indicate that she has the kind of vitriol directed towards her/her music that would justify keeping her as an example on this page.

Having a hatedom, even a particularly vocal hatedom, does not mean that something is deader than disco. Lots of artists have hatedoms without being deader than disco thanks to also having large, or at least not tiny, legitimate fandoms. In order for something to be deader than disco, the hatedom has to completely and utterly eclipse the (non-ironic) fandom.

Maybe my interpretations of your post are wrong, and I'm sorry for misreading if that's the case. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page as to what makes something deader than disco.

Also, the last part of your Lonestar sentence appears to have run away.

I will admit that I know little about country, but I agree that traditional country is not Dt D.

Gonna argue for cutting Far East Movement, as I feel like they fall squarely into our informal One Hit Wonder rule.

Also I am squarely for cutting Phineas and Ferb. Kids moving on to watch other shows is not the same as having a massive hatedom. Hell, the show is pretty high rated on Netflix.

• Rodney's career just fizzled out. He hasn't released an album in nearly five years and the only stain on his rep was his divorce from his wife.
• I don't think Lady A are really "hated". They're not as massive as they used to be and have been on hiatus for a while, but I think they're mostly respected.
• Faith just hasn't been active in ages. That's like calling Shania Twain "deader than disco" because she hasn't released new music in a long time. Not being relevant in today's music world does not necessarily mean that you're "deader than disco".

edited 29th Jun '16 11:14:52 AM by LaptopGuy

@Sonic stuff, anything Ken Penders did was popular when it was first introduced, but is now seen as filled with Mary Sues and too heavily focused on echidnas to the detriment of basically every other character. His attempt at suing Archie for the rights over his characters just made things worse. No one openly admits to liking Penders stuff anymore.

edited 29th Jun '16 11:30:14 AM by PhiSat

Btw I will be at a con this weekend, so I may not have time to do the full write ups for my Hip Hop opinions. I will still offer opinions on specific examples.

I will emphasize again that we should maybe make Sandboxes for the huge pages.

Edit: Faith Hill also had a residency in Vegas until recently (or maybe still does?), and it lasted/has lasted for at least two years, meaning it sold very well. Residencies in Vegas end QUICK if demand isn't there. I think she's a firm cut, as I already said.

edited 29th Jun '16 11:57:57 AM by LargoQuagmire

#61: However, Rodney does have derision. People hate his whiny voice and overbaked country boy cliches, and none of his singles are remembered as being any good.

Lady A also has derision. Their singles have very, very little recurrent play even on country radio, and almost all that anyone seems to remember them for is "Need You Now" and a bunch of sleepy sounding ballads.

Faith I'll concede on per the Vegas connection.

• This post begs to differ.

I mean, his own post contradicts it. I'd they're remembered for more than one song and not for being terrible, they've failed the DTD test. Derision is not the same as indifference, fading away, or being part of a trend that died out - I am a bit more than certain that bro country had more to do with Lady A fading away than any sort of hatred towards them.

But if they were known for only one song, they'd also fail the DTD test (the one-hit wonder rule).

I didn't elaborate, my bad, but I'm pretty sure we agree

I would think that the negative reception of Golden and 747, the reputation of having nothing but sleepy ballads, and a consensus of "Need You Now was their only good song" are just enough to push Lady A over the line as being DTD.

Rodney I'm seeing as more of a flameout now, since he still did have critical acclaim even if a lot of fans didn't like him.

Did the negative reception of those influence people's opinon of the earlier works to the same degree? Does listening to any of those make you a target for mockery?

Twentington, I think you aren't getting the most important piece of the DTD puzzle. Mockery and derision is an ESSENTIAL part of the trope. People saying that Lady A only had one good song retroactively, and having that song still be played regularly, is not derision. They have simply been reevaluated over time.

When looking at a DTD candidate, keep someone like Milli Vanilli in mind. They were caught lipsyncing their songs, and the response was to have their awards stripped, a class action lawsuit brought against them by consumers, the destruction of their career, and instant mockery from all corners - news, music, and comedy.

"Need You Now" is still beloved, so they don't meet DTD, is what I'm getting.

Anyone ready to do DeaderThanDisco.New Media?

We're not done the music subpages yet.

Can we cut out anything that's basically "Thing used to be popular, but something more advanced took its place"? I mean, that would be obvious.