Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Not really much of difference if you ask me and honestly makes the efforts of the heroes feel rather wasted since the new republic didn't amount to much. Would have been nice to actually see the new Republic actually function rather than just have most of their forces destroyed.

Same. Maybe we'll get that in 9, like remnant surviving forces coming to help the Resistance.

I've been so curious as to why the new-canon Happy Ending Override seems larger than the Legends one. For the galaxy it really isn't is it? They got far more uninterrupted peace in the new canon.

While I haven't read all the books I would say that part of it might be because even when they had more roadblocks along the way the New Republic didn't seemingly crumble into pieces against their foes.

That and none of the old guard failed on such a level as in the sequel trilogy.

Luke is leading a new Jedi order

Leia didn't get her career ruined and became a Jedi Knight.

Han didn't end up getting stabbed by his son in the legends timeline.

So while people expected another conflict, but people certainly didn't want the new republic to fall apart and not amount to anything especially in comparison to the old republic that lasted for quite some time even if it was not in the best shape in the prequels.

Edited by Darthwyn on Jan 21st 2019 at 2:29:41 PM

Was one of the criticisms directed towards the prequels was that there were too many jedis running around???

Because I didn't think that was one of the criticisms directed at the prequels or even a mistake needed to be fixed but that's just me.

The complaint that too many and too elaborate Jedi ruin the Jedi mystique was a pretty common critique of the prequels. Stuff like saying too many lightsabers make lightsabers "lose their appeal" was a commonplace criticism.

It's unlikely Disney/J.J Abrams deliberately decided to take a step back and kill the Order again over that criticism, but it's symptomatic.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 21st 2019 at 12:20:43 PM

I thought it was less that "there were too many Jedi" and more that "turning the Jedi into video game characters who can superjump around makes them lose something."

It's interesting that the sole fight I really remember from the prequels is "Duel of the Fates," which involved almost all sword-fighting and very little jumping around.

I'd rather have a Happy Ending Override after thirty years of peace than a "Hey the Emperor and Darth Vader are dead, let's fight the Empire and a whole bunch of other shit non-stop for the next 30 years".

That's not a Happy Ending, that's the galaxy descending into the exact sort of anarchy that Imperial hardliners claimed they were fighting against.

And hey, technically the New Republic lasted longer than the Empire did. The New Republic lasted thirty years. The Empire only lasted twenty-three years, I believe.

Around there, yeah.

They're fighting for thirty years, but there's an uninterrupted continuity of government in Legends — not even the Yuuzhan Vong could take them out and the very first thing they do after regrouping from the loss of Coruscant is hold an election.

That is a more powerful statement of the strength of a democratic republic than thirty years of decline, complacency and corruption followed by ignominious, catastrophic defeat leaving a small paramilitary behind to do what they refused to do. This plotline of restoring the republic, any republic, is idiotic if the society they build is so flimsy.

And comparing thirty years to twenty-three years is useless when the Old Republic lasted for a thousand years under one constitution, and thousands of years more before that. Thirty years is within the lifetime of one person. It's not long enough.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Jan 21st 2019 at 5:09:58 AM

So you consider wartime with the same government better than peacetime that ends when the government dies?

Edited by alliterator on Jan 21st 2019 at 2:16:44 AM

A government that can survive in wartime implies stronger institutions and traditions, a better economy, and deeper infrastructure, so yes, I would consider that superior to one that topples immediately after violence is directed at it. What's more, the canon New Republic was a proverbial "Sick Man" for years before the Hosnian Cataclysm, so it's clear that it was fatally compromised at an institutional level.

The more the New Republic period is elaborated, the more it's clear that this state was hopeless — the only reason peace was even established was the initial shock of Jakku and it was maintained because the First Order was getting ready. If that took a year, the New Republic would have been steamrollered quick. It took thirty years, so the NR lasted thirty years.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Jan 21st 2019 at 5:25:48 AM

I consider a government that can defend itself even if it ends up in multiple conflicts more interesting than one that collpases with ease in a fictional sense.

I mean, you just kind of described France during World War II.

They're fighting for thirty years, but there's an uninterrupted continuity of government in Legends — not even the Yuuzhan Vong could take them out and the very first thing they do after regrouping from the loss of Coruscant is hold an election. '

Just wanted to point out that this isn't quite accurate. Coruscant fell to the Vong in Star by Star and the regrouping of the Senate on Mon Cal and elections for a new Chief of State took place in Destiny's Way - the events were separated by several books and approx. a year of in-universe time. The first thing the Legends New Republic did in response to the fall of Coruscant was in fact the remnants of Fey'lya's cabinet trying to loot what was left and then get the hell out of Dodge with no intention of actually trying to salvage the government, as related in the Enemy Lines duology (in fact, the rank incompetence of the situation was a significant part of why the New Republic ended up rebranding itself as the Galactic Alliance after the same election, to try and get away from the stink of the whole fiasco that led up to and then followed Coruscant falling in the first place). So far in the sequel trilogy it seems like less than a week since Starkiller Base took out the senate. The circumstances, as of yet, aren't really comparable.

Edited by MasterGhandalf on Jan 21st 2019 at 4:25:56 AM

I think Disney just wanted to create their own Status Quo & did so by wiping out everything.

They effectively want to make movies completely on their own terms so they are trying to get rid of the stuff not made by them.

I don't think they are, because then they wouldn't have made Kylo Ren obsessed with Darth Vader and Han and Leia's son, nor would they have included Leia in all three movies (which she was going to be before Carrie Fisher's untimely death).

I think they wanted a clean slate, but they also wanted to capitalize on the return of old characters.

I think it's worth noting that technically the First Order hasn't actually destroyed the New Republic. It's assumed they will take control of the major system in short order, but that hasn't actually happened yet at the end of TLJ, and the Supremacy isn't going to be doing much of anything for awhile given the...structural problems it was having at the end of the movie.

What I'm saying is that there's a possibility that we will see the New Republic manage to hold the line against the First Order. At least to a degree. Maybe reveal that Lando (he is in the movie) managed to cobble together an emergency government in the aftermath of the destruction of Hosnan Prime, and gather enough forces to at least grind the First Order's offensive to a painfully slow crawl that's still ongoing when Episode 9 picks up.

Failing that, what I want to see is a galaxy that wants to be saved from the First Order. It can't just be the Resistance dragging the galaxy back to democracy in spite of itself.

There are several ways to show that, but my favorite is the final battle ending with a patently absurd number of ships answering the call to arms against the First Order. On the scale of more ships then the First Order's official count has existing in the entire galaxy. What follows wouldn't even be a battle, it would be the First Order's fleet being obliterated in a single glorious minute.

Yeah, that's a very good point about how little in-universe time there's actually been since the Hosnian Cataclysm. We probably really don't have enough information to pass judgment on the New Canon NR's long-term durability.

Okay, that's fair, but in most of the material surrounding TLJ, it's stated that all major systems will fall to the FO in a few weeks. So even if only a week has passed, they presumably only need a month to establish total control over every important population center in the Galaxy.

Will fall, not have fallen.

That's a subtle difference, but potentially a very important one. Just because people think there's nothing standing in the First Order's way doesn't mean that's actually how things are going to play out.

I do expect them to take control of a big chunk of the Galaxy, but the possibility exists that they will have failed to definitively topple the New Republic when Episode 9 rolls around.

Given that the story of the last stand of the Hero of Yavin made it literally across the galaxy to Cantonica in little time, I'm gonna guess the FO will have a harder fight than anticipated, yes.

Huh so since we were recently discussing Star Wars games, video game talk Jim Sterling of The Jimquisition just released a video detailing just how much EA fucked up Star Wars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2x8YgiJ8jQ&t=135s

In an amusing bit he compared he compared the amount of games made under Lucas Arts from 2002 to 2006, where they made 16 games while EA only made 2 whole games in 4 years.

The real biggest fuck up wasn't even giving EA the rights, it was giving anyone exclusive rights. If you have a bunch of people making games, then at least when one sucks you can hope the other guy does better, but if you only have one group making them & they are fucked up, then you are screwed for a long time because there's no hope.

That's sort of what's happening with the Warhammer 40,000 games right now. A lot of them have been kinda meh, but there have been good ones, and they've all made a reasonable profit. Compared to EA and Star Wars, which, well. Everything we've been talking about.