Needs Help: Spoiled Sweet

Spoiled Sweet is listed on Always Female index, yet there are some male examples on the page — I'd say about twenty.

The trope is defined as feminine. Only there was a line that I deleted as it made no sense with the rest of the article ("she is a pretty, rich or comfortably middle-class girl (or guy)"). I wanted to replace it with a line at the end that there are known male examples, until I realized it doesn't quite fit with the rest of the description.

As far as I can see, the page can be fixed these ways:

• We add a paragraph about its male variant and remove the trope from Always Female index
• We declare that male examples are misuse and remove them from the page
• The male variant could go though YKTTW as a proposal for a new trope

edited 4th Oct '14 12:07:54 AM by XFllo

Opened.

I do not see a good case as to why the article should be Always Female.

Boy a lot of the male examples are so borderline or just 'rich but not mean' it is not even funny, heck there is one guy who created weapons of mass destruction and killed millions of people but was just nice to his wife and child, on there. Sorry Dozle but no, your brother fits though.

Those that do fit though do seem to have some feminine traits or in the case of the eastern examples, which seem to be the bulk of the male examples on the page, they are almost always Bishōnen and/or in a Shōjo series. Those would just be filed under Gender Flipped examples I think.

edited 3rd Oct '14 6:10:43 AM by Memers

When I think of it, the male equivalent could very well be Lovable Jock in American media. I don't think the male variant needs to be feminine or have Pretty Boy appeal, we just need to list a couple of traits associated with spoiled, rich, popular guys who are nice to all kids (if it's at school).

There are some examples, like it's pointed above, that just state "rich but behaves rather well" or "he's actually a pretty decent guy" — I thought these were commented-out for insufficient context anyhow.

There are also examples of princes and princesses, but I somehow feel roaylty should not be included. If I'm not mistaken, they are usually portrayed in fiction that they were raised to be polite and kind to their subjects and people who are bellow them in social ladder. Spoiled Sweet is in a way a subversion to Rich Bitch or Alpha Bitch, and Proud Princess stands separately. Hope that makes sense.

edited 4th Oct '14 12:06:55 AM by XFllo

It does. I'm seeing male examples on the page, but no legitamate male examples. There are some nice rich males, but they don't really fit this archetype. They just feel like shoehorning.

I think we just need to ax them or move them to the proper tropes.

None of the men have the sheltered naivety or the relentless optimism that are part of the trope. And rarely do they genuinely seem nice to everyone. In fact, most of them are just listed as being nicer than other people of their social standing and that's not really the trope.

edited 3rd Oct '14 10:59:57 AM by shimaspawn

That is not just a problem with the male examples in my experience. I see it used a lot for 'rich girl who is not a jerk'.

Yeah, those need to be cleaned up too. The trope is more than just rich and not an asshole. Though I think some pruning to the definition might help with that. It's picked up some meandering over the years.

Huh. That's not what this trope means?

Nope. That's not what this trope means. This is an archetype, that is rich, nice, but sheltered and naive, but at the same time is nice to everyone and doesn't look down their nose at them. They tend to be young and/or sheltered.

Like this one here:

• London Tipton from The Suite Life Of Zack And Cody used to be sweet when she was a little girl. For instance, she was feeding the hungry during Christmas. Her father's constant disappointments caused her to grow into a Spoiled Brat. London isn't nasty enough to be a Rich Bitch,though,so she may still fit this trope.
  
  IDK about when she was a kid, but London is not Spoiled Sweet on the show, she is petty, classist, and rude. She has Pet the Dog moments and is not, like, malevolent, but she is not Spoiled Sweet by a long shot.

edited 3rd Oct '14 3:21:37 PM by rexpensive

Just a quick read through of the Trope page shows that this has devolved into rich people that are nice (Professor X, seriously?). I agree that this is a feminine trope. This particular archetype is applied almost exclusively to young women. I'm fine with listing the rare male examples, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule.

edited 3rd Oct '14 3:28:07 PM by margibso

I think it's important that the character has grown up as a rich and spoiled kid. Adults with more practical experience aren't the same thing.

I don't think gender matters, even if it's more common for girls.

I think gender matters because all of the correct examples are girls and as a result, someone writing a male example is almost a sure sign that they're getting the trope wrong. Male examples have a much larger percentage of shoehorning. (In that there aren't any actual male examples on the page.)

I'm think this trope really needs clean up.

But when you don't have any actual male examples, then it's probably a gendered trope. Even if objectively, there's nothing stopping male examples, the fact that all the male examples are shoehorned is a bad sign.

edited 3rd Oct '14 7:16:34 PM by shimaspawn

Gender does matter but there are gender inverted examples out there. Primarily in Otome Game, reverse harem and works along those same lines. For example quite a few of the male cast of Ouran High School Host Club fit this perfectly.

No, they don't. I love Ouran, but none of the boys fit this trope.

Honey isn't naive. Despite his childlike demeanour, he's quite worldly.

Tamaki might think he is, but he's only sweet to those who are of his class, or he wants to like him. He's often quite rude to those he thinks are beneath him. His niceties are largely a façade. There's a difference between having occasional selfish moments and going around like the world revolves around you.

Kasanoda is flat out shoe horning in that he's just rich and a decent guy.

All of them fail some part of the basic defining trio of genuinely nice to everyone, naive, and rich.

edited 3rd Oct '14 8:34:44 PM by shimaspawn

I don't think the lack of male examples is any proof it's a strictly female trope for the same reason I don't think a trope cannot have real life examples just because no one has added one.

Considering this discussion, the laconic should be changed. Laconic.Spoiled Sweet has "privileged child is a good person".

That's a terribly bad laconic even if you go for a broader definition. I would go for something like "Genuinely nice to everyone, naive, and rich".

Sounds good, though I'd put the first part of the sentence last.

I suggest this: Pretty, rich, sheltered, optimistic and genuinely nice to everyone.

Another important element is they lack common sense.

Which tends cause moments of Values Dissonance, I think that is the trope. With them not quite understanding the value of money, saying things unintentionally insulting and not understanding why, and can not fathom common people or why they do not have X luxurious item etc.

edited 5th Oct '14 6:58:42 AM by Memers

Yes, that is part of this trope. They do have a tendency to stick their feet in their mouth.

Also, most laconics are crap. Never trust them to tell you what a trope is.

edited 5th Oct '14 7:49:28 AM by shimaspawn

I don't think being pretty is necessarily part of the trope. Frequently present, yes, but I don't think it adds anything to the concept.

No. I don't either. Most fictional characters are pretty. It's just a thing.