Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
A procrastination in of itself
Sure but generally you can convert to a religion, otherwise that religion is inherently ethno-supremacist.
If you’re DNA testing people than you’re saying that only people from a particularly racial group are allowed into your religion.
Judaism has an ethnic component is that you can be religiously Jewish, ethnically Jewish, or both, but denying members of the first group Jewish rights (which is what happened) based on their DNA is strait up racial supremacy.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
I simply don't agree, The Cherokee Nation are not ethno-supremacist for not allowing me, a random white guy, access to tribal membership. Ethno-selective maybe, but that's not Supremacy.
Ethno-supremacism would be if Cherokees were in a position of power and used that power to advance the interests of their ethnic group at the expense of non-Cherokee.
So Jewish sects having DNA requirements to be considered Jewish is not ethnic-supremacy, but linking rights to those requirements is.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
They're doing this to other Jews. Non-Ashkenazi Jews aren't treated anywhere near equally.
To say nothing of the entire sterilization program for Ethiopian Jews.
Edited by LeGarcon on Sep 5th 2019 at 1:38:10 PM
Oh really when?
That's an entirely different issue, I'm talking about having ethnic requirements. That itself is not ethno-supremacists, discriminating against other types of Jewish people is just racism.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
IIRC that's not a great analogy for what happened. These people had been raised their entire lives as Jewish, thought of themselves as Jews, were seen by others as Jews, etc. It'd be more like if you'd been raised Cherokee your whole life only to realize you were swapped at birth with a white kid at the hospital or something, and then the Cherokee tribal government denying you any of the benefits of tribal membership because you "don't count" even though you've seen yourself as Cherokee, perhaps even spoken Cherokee, and been by everyone else as Cherokee since you were an infant.
ok boomer
Hmm, that's a fair point.
I still think that Judaism's nature as an ethnoreligion isn't inherently bigoted, but I do agree that the situation is rather horrible.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2019 at 1:28:23 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
It's also worth pointing out that many East European Jews are rightfully and understandably suspicious of anyone trying to test their DNA to "determine their Jewishness".
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
AFAIK the Cherokee Nation defines itself strictly by ethnic ancestry and disqualify people from membership simply because they don't believe in the Cherokee's religion.
Which doesn't really matter, if the people employed by the state can decide you're not Jewish based on genetics - of if you refuse to undergo a DNA test.
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
A procrastination in of itself
The Cherokee Nation is a pretty good comparison, but for very bad reasons, because a big part of why they DNA test is so as to deny citizenship to the descendants of people the Cherokee Nation enslaved. It very much is ethno-supremacy with the Cherokee Nation, ethno-supremacy over black people.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
yeah the folks in charge are the problem. It denies many converts, too.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Yeah, those guys and their enabling superiors are obviously of the "ethnic Jews are the only true Jews" camp. Doesn't change the fact that the government is unable to give an official definition to the "Jewish" part of the "Jewish state" line in their constitution specifically because the topic is too contentious to do so. I presume they'd only do it if they can secure a supermajority or close to it in agreement with whatever definition they settle upon.
Edited by MarqFJA on Sep 7th 2019 at 9:22:41 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Not just any ethnic Jews, mind. They will exclude ethnic Jews who aren’t orthodox or from mixed religious families.
I stand corrected, so a Jewish state can either be an ethnostate or a religious state?
<shrugs> It's bad either way. Both lead to the suppression of minorities who cannot or will not be part of the privileged group.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 7th 2019 at 2:16:13 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Edited by MarqFJA on Sep 7th 2019 at 12:12:50 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
If it wasn't already obvious, I call bullshit. I highly doubt even an administration as obtuse as Trump's will support a move that will straight up incite war. Not to mention that taking Jericho (I couldn't tell from the article whether that's the plan) is in violation of even more international laws than Israel generally ignores, due to it being one of the eight cities in area A. He's clearly just getting desperate before the election.
In the name of being honest
It'll be one way to judge where Israeli voters are standing on the issue, at least.
Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
Insanity.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
You know, part of me really wonders if he's not as insane as that announcement seems and that he might pull the "I never said when I'll do it, or that my plan wouldn't be thwarted by others in the government through completely legal means" ploy after he wins the election.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
So there's a chance that Israel will become a dejure Apartheid state? Oh lovely.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Netanayhu will drive things as far as he can until someone stops him. That is how these kinds of people operate.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
That man is an active danger to Jews all over the world. He and his ilk need to be removed from power, yet all the cards are stacked in his favor.
Keep in mind Bibi barely held on to power in the April elections and was unable to form a government due to Benny Gantz' Blue and White coalition. Also keep in mind that he's facing corruption charges the minute he leaves office. He's shit-scared of losing and he's trying to one-up all challengers to keep his position next week.
Now, the implication that this is what he thinks will get potential dissenters to vote for him, that is a bit disturbing. But to quote Blazing Saddles, this is the last act of a desperate man.
We don't care if it's the first act of Henry V!
ok boomer
They aren't wrong, Jewry is an ethnoreligious concept. So it's absolutely wrong to suggest that Judaism is just a religion, it's always had an ethnic component.
Which, of course, is why a Jewish state is an ethnostate and thus hardly a good thing. But that doesn't mean they're wrong.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn