The Brazilian Politics Thread

Uh, yes. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but former history major here. And I'll cite my own explanation about Socialism here a few weeks back:

That applies to Fascism every bit as much. It's an idea, a collection of characteristics that don't exist on their own and need a lot more stuff around in order to truly exist. The original idea of Fascism isn't the only form of Fascism to exist. Bolsonaro does employ Fascism, his version of Fascism.

Yes, democracy placed Bolsonaro in power. It also did the same to Nixon, Obama, Macrón and Theresa May, all wildly different. It's a flawed system, as much as any other. Saying "Well, democracy is what placed X there" does not excuse whatever fuckup or success might come off of that, nor does it negate people's feelings of disappointment, regret or of being correct. It's a pointless phrase, especially in a time where people are so confused, tired and paranoid and corruption is such a widespread issue that democracy has become so easy to manipulate.

As for the matter of the cuban doctors, there is at least one big justification for keeping the cuban doctors here: in many rural towns, those cuban doctors are the only doctors in the entire town. Them going away now means those towns are essentially stuck with an unfilled medical position, one that won't be filled because all the new doctors that might come about for the now empty positions will be joining the legions of unemployed doctors in big city centers instead of going for the areas with the greatest needs. They'll be little Timmy, whose doctor/lawyer father paid for his private university so he could be a doctor because it's a high paying job instead of any other reason, and little Timmy isn't gonna go to rural towns because "he's better than that". And those rural towns will then be left without proper healthcare. Also:

Bull. Well, mostly bull, at any rate. That's not the only thing he did (and I don't remember seeing any mentions of him wanting to bring the doctors' families to Brazil, although I may have just missed that. I've seen him claim that on Twitter, but no official statement as to the matter.), and that's not the only reason Cuba decided to terminate the whole thing. As a matter of fact, you're jumping to conclusions about Cuba, their decisions and their beliefs with the prowess of an olympic athlete. What Bolsonaro is doing to that program looks a lot more like what Trump was doing with Obamacare in the early days of his presidency: trying to roll back an act of the former government for little reason other than it being an act by the former government, with a few excuses as justification. He's just better at justificating things than Trump. Either way, freeing these cuban doctors from oppression is not exactly something that should be a priority when there are very similar cases to what Bolsonaro claims to be facing happening right in brazilian soil.

And they would be wrong. PSDB is one of the most prominent faces of the Right at the moment. They've been that for quite a long while. They may not be the exact defiition of the idea, or direct equivalent to other examples of the concept seen around the world, but in Brazil, Right-Wing is exactly what they are.

That's the letter of the law, not the spirit of it. The idea of democracy is that yes, the majority decision is taken as the decision of the whole, but the point is that everyone has a voice, and, in an ideal situation, that means there is discussion and engagement by all, until a civil compromise can be achieved. Thing is, democracy is having a bit of a crisis right now, so things aren't working as they should be.

And by the way:

There's no need for this. or these:

You're being preemptively defensive and ending up as haughty for it, and that does not help debate come across. It makes people mad at you. As Gaon said, coming here to accuse others of not listening to you is not a good way to start the conversation, and it's very hypocritical, since you're doing exactly that by starting and continuing with that kind of rethoric.

Because it kind of is. Almost everyone here is Left-leaning, just different shades of it. I'm pretty sure you're the only Right-leaning person in this thread I've seen thus far. Which I would say doesn't excuse you coming here and preemptively acting like no one will listen to you and immediately disagree, even if it's happened in the past. Most of us are actually trying to keep ourselves impartial, at least until things happen, and things are happening in a deeply concerning way. And his presidency hasn't even begun yet.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Nov 16th 2018 at 8:17:01 AM

While so far I only 100% know about Mussolini's Fascism, the main problem to me is that to me saying Bolsonaro is Fascist is basically comparing him to Mussolini. I've seen this becoming a mess over this whole year, and this word has be thrown around so much, so much, that I really felt the need to make that question.

To me, Bolsonaro only has that enormous personality problem where he's homophobic, highly nationalist, supportive of the Military Regime (no Libertarian will ever be supporting of any kind of regime). Hence why I didn't vote him, preferring to go null rather than choosing the other option. Now, I repeat that I don't know what exactly he'll do once he sits on the Plateau Palace. He might become the Fascist leader people on the Left feared, he might only be another Collor (I think Draghinazzo mentioned the possibility), or he might actually be a good president (as insane as it sounds).

Can't rebuff that one back.

Yes, I have been hearing this around, and seems like a valid argument. As I said before, the end of the Cuban medic program leaves a gap in our healthcare system. While there are indeed doctors with such an ego, not all doctors indulge on that. In fact, while this is far from being a "be-all-end-all" thing, if you take the decision to watch the video, it discusses the gap left by the medic program and why we have this problem right now:

YMMV heavily as this is a Libertarian view of things, but watching the whole video will give food for thought.

It actually was in his government program. Even so, regardless of how bad our healthcare system is, I keep the statement that nothing justifies giving money to a dictatorship (which Cuba still is, about sixty years later). On the Trump/Obamacare debacle, it's just as much of a hot debate as the situation in our hands now. Forcing every health company to give health convenes to everyone would eventually dry many of them of money that would keep them afloat.

This gets us into a situation where the debate of whether healthcare should be free or not comes. The truth of this is that this is actually a debate of whether your money will go to taxes that should go to those hospitals and doctors (the State), or directly to those hospitals and doctors, which basically ensures you'll get the treatment (the doctors themselves or whoever puts his money on that hospital). In either case, we end up losing money, the difference is the route and, thanks to corruption, the final destination of that money.

Now, on the oppression stuff. The Cuban medics have their right to be free of Cuban dictatorship. Yes, we have a problem, caused by a combination of Bolsonaro's loose cannon attitude and monsters that always existed, but only now feel validated to persecute people. Truth is, this is an inherent problem of Brazilian education as it has become in the last decade. As I said, there is no explosion, this is only a bunch of Brazilians who actually feel validated to show their true nature as a massively prejudicious people. They were always around, they were only "hidden" or outside public view.

Now, whether Bolsonaro himself will enforce this? I will only know when he actually takes posse and start being in command of this country, and no sooner than that.

I think Angelus Nox has made a more valid question on this:

Let's see here with a bit of research.

• Tea Party = Doesn't look like a bad case, but this is me as a Libertarian viewing their proposals. But I don't know if Trump's support to them should be considered a good thing.
• British UKIP = Brexit supporters, I'm cool with it. But they sorta sound like massive hypocrites as they don't support Wales and Scotland's independence.
• French National Front = French Alt-Right. Also, heavy nationalism (which ends up applying protectionism not unlike what we see in Brazil) doesn't sit well with me. Hell, Bolsonaro himself already doesn't sit well with me, what with him being a big-time nationalist.
• Greek Golden Dawn = Neo-Nazi party, already my enemy.

Bolsonaro's PSL itself isn't exactly a Right-wing party, is it? Yet it runs with a more Liberal premise in comparison. Most of the people I know in the Right-wing treats PSDB as Center-Left. But I agree that there are or at least were some true Right-wing parties around, like the aforementioned by me PRONA (which was nationalist, if I recall).

I fail to understand how democracy could be the only vision of freedom when I think it sort of only allows you to choose who's gonna command your life. While I may not have the answers at hand, I know there are, or must, be another way. Hence why I follow Libertarianism.

I might be skipping the last two points raised by you as I don't have an exact right answer for those comments. But yes, I admit I tend to assume an always worst-case scenario and go into preemptive defense, if quite aggro sometimes.

Wow. I actually took two hours making this one post.

Edited by ZeroDozer on Nov 16th 2018 at 9:40:25 AM

It's not really that simple, though. A lot of people can't afford private health care, and if that's the only kind of health care available, then they could just well die from a perfectly treatable wound or illness. With a public health care system, the taxes can pay for everyone to have health care regardless of income.

Misappropriation of funds/corruption is a valid concern, but healthcare should be a right and not just something only the wealthy can afford.

Not to mention that, in America at least, the reason why (please feel free to correct me) healthcare is ludicrously expensive is so insurance companies get a deal. For a hypothetical example, what would normally be $100 is jacked up to $500 without insurance. With insurance, it would be cheaper, but of course you would have to pay the whole inflated price if you don't have insurance.

While I disagree with dozer in some thing he is right about something: cuban should be free to be used as political card for dictatorship and maybe bolsonaro can ensure that(stoped clock and all that jazz).

Have have being to soft on cuba for a long time.

I wonder how things would be if the healthcare "market" was less regulated by the State. I always keep seeing that things tend to fix themselves once you let them alone.

Uh, I think you meant "be free from being used as political cards for Cuba's dictatorship". Not a native English speaker, I guess?

Edited by ZeroDozer on Nov 16th 2018 at 10:11:44 AM

...that doesn't mean that's what we're doing, though...

...only? Also, isn't that kind of bad enough by itself?

I'm pretty sure he will eventually pull a Collor, maybe even try to run away with it, but I doubt he'll be just that. I've no way of guaranteeing that, though, so I'll drop that line of thought there lest I attract a bigger discussion than I want to get into right now.

I think that's a bit too inflexible. Strictly speaking, trading with China is giving money to a dictatorship, but it's such an economical power that there's no way to not do it. Cuba might be problematic, but it has a resource we can use: it's doctors. I see it as completely fair that we use that if we have the means to do it. Politics are moraly grey in every level. Making ultimatums like that for politics is a dangerous way to go about it.

That's not the point I was making, though. I was referring to the reasons for their actions, not the entire "should healthcare be free or not" debate. That's certainly a fair debate to have, but it's not what I was getting at.

Yes. The "explosion" is in reference to the fact that all of a sudden these people feel confident enough to express all of that prejudice, not that they weren't prejudiced until then. Brazil does have a massive problem of denial in regards to those people, dating back to the end of the military dictatorship as a matter of fact, but the "explosion" in question is about how these people are now coming out of the woodwork.

He already has. It was basically half of his entire campaign, and the reason these people feel validated as they do. It's the reason hate groups have shown support for him and intend to root themselves further in Brazil now that he's president. And there's been plenty of proof of that in his behaviour these last few weeks alone. I'm not sure what you're waiting for here.

Yes it is, and no it doesn't. And I'm not sure what I can mention to explain this argument that the others haven't pointed out already. Also: UKIP are massive racists. I don't know enough about the Tea Party or the French National Front to talk, but as you said, the Tea Party having Trump's support doesn't make for a good introduction.

It's not the only vision. I don't know why people seem to think it is (Well, ok, the US propaganda machine during the Cold War is a big factor, but other than that). That said, democracy is basically allowing you to choose who commands your life. The ideal is that by allowing everyone to vote on that you can reach a consensus that will aid the most people and/or be for the best of the country. As you can see, it's worked perfectly.

@Kakuzan: Not exactly. Health care is very expensive because no one in the system has a strong incentive to lower costs. Hospitals are actually one of the players most in fault here, along with the gov health insurance programs for the poor and elderly, medicare and medicaid. These two programs pay out a set price by test and treatment, and make no effort to determine if the test or treatment was necessary, therefore health providers have an incentive to add unnecessary treatments when someone is diagnosed with an illness. Hospitals routinely inflate costs because they know the insurance companies will pay it, which they are happy to do since they just pass the costs on to their customers.

Its complicated.

Edited by DeMarquis on Nov 16th 2018 at 7:19:34 AM

Very not good is the quick answer to that one.

Even Adam Smith advocated a well-policed network of regulations within which to freely trade (without restrictive tarrifs and the other restrictive tricks of mercantalist doctrine) when writing The Wealth of Nations.

He never advocated a free-for-all... for good reason. He'd read and understood Hobbes.

Systems need both regulating and policing, otherwise you'll get unethically "farned" organs and babies sold at the highest bidder, alongside selectively treated patients not chosen by need, but by their background and wallet-size. :/

Edited by Euodiachloris on Nov 17th 2018 at 11:54:47 AM

The issue with public and private healthcare is one that requires a page on its own.

But for Brazil, which already has issues with predatory pricing, moving the health system even more towards private business is a dead end mistake.

Bolsonaro's solution to the problem was a half assed explanation on how the ''market would regulate itself', mostly by saying there would be a lot of private insurance companies going to cover people.

While at the same time ignoring a few basic issues:

Mainly, insurance companies aren't something easy or cheap to start from scratch, even if you have loose regulations, the amount of money needed to start one with enough reach and support to actually act as an insurance company is prohibitively expensive. Which, again, would leave the whole system in the hands of the selective few capable of affording opening one.

Secondly, because there still issues with the already giant insurance companies throw their weight around and either absorb other smaller companies or run them out of business with pricing wars they can afford to wage but not the smaller ones. Which again, with deregulated markets is easier to do and deregulation doesn't prevent local monopolies from forming and leaving people with expensive services they can't risk voting them out with their wallets because it is their lives and health that are on the line.

Lastly, insurance companies chase where the money and paying customers are at. Which is again, reflected how the best hospital and insurance companies are located in large urban centers or cities with a wealthy enough consumer base. There is little to no interest for insurance companies and hospitals to move into small cities or poor communities, because there is no money to be made and these people more often than not end up requiring medical assistance due to the nature of their work and living places.

Which is something I've seen in practice. My hometown in Minas Gerais has the only large hospitals (all of them private) in a 80Km radius of a lot of smaller cities and rural towns. Which means, they either have small public clinics (mostly understaffed and lacking in resources) or nothing working at all.

His public heath care plans, specially tossing it into the hands of the private business isn't one that particularly worked to solve the health issues of any country.

Health as a for profit business either resulted in the poor being cut off from healthcare altogether or the government spending even more, because of things like the private hospitals and insurance companies charging as much as they want for the service and then sending the government the bill.

That is the issue with health alone, his ideas for education policies are another big bag of bad ideas.

The free market doesn't regulate itself. That's not how the free market works. It boggles the mind that anyone actually believes this.

Edited by M84 on Nov 17th 2018 at 10:56:23 PM

I'm feeling the need to help Dozer a little bit by saying that I stand with him on the matter of Cuban doctors.

The fact we are venezuelans maybe have something to do with it: after all, we know very well how tie our goverment is to cuba and the used of doctor as political tool.

My main problem with the Cuban doctors argument is that I, somehow, suspect Bolsonaro will not extend this sort righteousness to other countries, like Russia, Saudi Arabia and even China.

More importantly, though, even if stop dealing with Cuba is necessary, the way it is being done is way too rushed. There is no way more doctors will be found in time to replace all the Cubans, so the price of this decision is hurting many people who will now be left without medical assistance. A solution to the problem the Cubans came here to fix should be found before sending them away.

We literally can't afford to cut dealings with China, and the funny thing is Bolsonaro has made multiple hostile statements towards the country too.

The Cuban doctors were their own set of issues, however they were still the only doctors or whatever passed as doctors and physicians for towns and communities where the next hospital is several hours away be it by car or boat.

Which is a really terrible thing to happen for those communities because having something is still better than nothing. He didn't even needed to take the presidency before going to rant about the issue and making the Cubans pull out the doctors preemptively before any actual policy could be done.

If you thought that Bolsonaro had stupid rhetoric, check out the new foreign relations chancellor

The Guardian has a similar piece on this piece of shit

It is like Steve Bannon and Alex Jones had a baby.

Seriously.

Is this fucking idiot really going to represent our country abroad?

Edited by AngelusNox on Nov 17th 2018 at 9:34:38 AM

Healthcare is one area where a free market is actually least likely to work, because the public doesnt want an underclass that wanders the streets with untreated illnesses and injuries. As long as being treated for life-threatening conditions is considered a right, a market solution isnt a good idea.

Fucking hell...

So our diplomatic relations are going to get fucked for the next four years. Yay.

My point is that we can't effort losing the Cuban doctors either, yet here we are. It is not a matter of principles, it is a matter of what people, and Bolsonaro, find to be acceptable losses. And I find disgusting that people's access to healthcare is seem as such.

Honest question: What would the exodus of Cuban doctors actually accomplish?

Besides a lot of people losing access to healthcare, you mean?

Yeah. This comes off as a strong arm politician doing a big showy act that in actuality hurts a lot more than it helps, among many other things.

You just answered your own question. It's a big showy act by a populist asshole who doesn't know or care about how to fucking do shit.

It's really just so Bolsonaro can "stick it" to a leftist dictatorship and get brownie points, ignoring how selectively he's applying that criteria.

That's pretty much what it is, coupled with the usual "more jobs for people from our country instead of foreigners" rethoric. By introducing a reevaluation of those doctors' capabilities, he would either force the situation that did happen with Cuba being offended, or suddenly "find out" several doctors weren't "up to this country's standards". That, as mentioned before, will instead lead to several doctors from the big city centers joining the work force, but only in those city centers, since nobody wants to go to the poor parts of the country where everyone's sick and there are no shopping malls. But the concept remains: open up more jobs for brazilians and claim to be standing against a terrible dictatorship.