Any good fantasy deconstructions?

I have this fascination with deconstructions, especially fantasy that FULLY deconstructs The Hero / The Chosen One, Evil Overlord, and Fate and Prophecy Tropes. I am familiar with Dune, Berserk, and Code Geass. I have just finished reading The Sundering, which was.....rather disappointing (if you want to know why, here is my review). So I guess I'm trying to find something else to get over the disappointment. It doesn't have to be strictly fantasy, although preferably no fanfiction.

edited 12th Jun '13 7:30:39 PM by shiro_okami

Hm... It depends on what you consider a deconstruction, but the Mistborn Trilogy has some interesting takes on heroes, villains and prophecies. I recommend you give it a whirl.

Joe Abercrombie's books have a lot of deconstruction. His original trilogy The First Law beginning with The Blade Itself, has the most 'traditional fantasy' ones. For example...(vague non-specific spoilers) the king's 'secret bastard' is miraculously found when the king dies. He's developed a reputation as a valiant warrior and shrewd negotiator. In reality, he was a whore's child forced forced upon a noble family and his reputation has been manufactured by one of the other main characters.

I really loved Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns and King of Thorns. They aren't exactly deconstructions but the second book does utterly hilarious stuff with prophecy, and the first book is a vicious (but darkly funny) take on "young prince and his ragtag band of misfits, out to right the wrongs done to his family." The main character, Jorg, despises traditional fantasy wisdom. Like, he's not going to play chess with the world's best chess player when he can just punch him in the face.

edited 12th Jun '13 7:51:00 PM by Phoenixflame

I have heard of that, but I heard that the Evil Overlord, while actually a Well-Intentioned Extremist, was still a pretty bad guy. Although I also heard it was good, so I might check it out anyway, even if it's not what I'm looking for.

What I mean when I say FULL deconstruction is that the Evil Overlord isn't actually evil while "The Hero" IS evil. I have found works where the Evil Overlord isn't evil (Dune, The Sundering, and to some extents Code Geass) and where "The Hero" IS evil (Berserk), but never one that has both at the same time. I would actually write my own if I had the time and skill.

I think The First Law comes pretty close to what you're looking for. The Evil Empire isn't exactly jolly since its not that kind of series, but for a clan of undead cannibal wizards they aren't so bad. And it turns out they had pretty good reasons for what they did. As for heroes that are evil... well you'd have to read the books to find out about that.

Abercrombie also enjoys taking characters which he's cast as heroes/villains in one book and portraying them as the villain/hero in another by writing from a different point of view.

edited 12th Jun '13 8:27:04 PM by MrShine

I think you need to better word to describe what you're looking for than "deconstruction" (since a combination Hero Antagonist / Villain Protagonist is not at all what the word means). That may be why you were having trouble finding the books you seek.

edited 12th Jun '13 9:25:39 PM by LizardBite

Hmm...how to explain The First Law without spoilers.

The "good guys" are only good by virtue of POV. Most people consider them either bloodthirsty monsters, craven idiots, or total sadists. And yet, for all their flaws, gosh darnit they are fun to root for. And yet...well, let's just say the most heroic of these main characters I wound up thinking was a hypocritical bastard, and the most callow idiot wanted to be a hero but got brutalized the moment he tried.

The "evil overlord" is not posited as evil until the third book. At first he seems like a more hardass wise wizard type. It's a dawning realization that he's worse than the "evil empire."

And yes, characters who are seen as horrible or heroic in one book often become the opposite in the next. For example, one character who appears to be a "fun-loving but somewhat blackhearted rogue" does not improve with old age...by the end of Abercrombie's last book, you realize that for all his efforts to be a better person, he half-assed it every time.

I love it because it takes a hard look at "types . Even the warrior who fights for the good guys is still a trained, unhesitant killer. Most traditional novelists paint this as a noble character who only fights because he's "defending good." In reality, you have to have a certain mindset to be able to slaughter people left and right. That doesn't go away just because the war's over. Certain arc words become really dark in hindsight. "You can never have too many knives" seems like a humorous remark, not unsuited for a Feist or a Jordan. Then at some point, it hits you...who the hell thinks that but for someone who's always expecting a fight to the death?

edited 12th Jun '13 9:33:48 PM by Phoenixflame

Re: Mistborn:

It does have a subversion of the "heroic quest to save the world from evil" trope, but it's part of the backstory rather than the present-day narrative.

There's Kelsier, too.

No, even with what's revealed later in the trilogy, we're pretty clearly meant to see Kelsier as a good guy and his rebellion against the Lord Ruler as a good thing, even if it does have some unforeseen consequences.

Not to spoil much, but even though Kelsier is a good guy (Good guys and bad guys aren't hard to tell apart in Sanderson's novels generally, with the exception of Hrathen), I like that the story introduced some moral ambiguity to his character, with his ruthlessness towards noblemen and his ego and desire for posterity. Not a villain by any means, but he's not a squeaky-clean character either, and not the quasi-chosen one you'd think from an initial read of the books.

I took away that he was very much a vindictive anti-hero with an inflated opinion of himself. It takes a special kind of hubris to establish your own cult of personality to fight the Church Of Evil.

Kelsier has some bad points and the Lord Ruler has some good points, but it takes a lot more than that to count as a subversion. Most novels written for adults are expected to give their characters some shades of grey.

edited 12th Jun '13 10:59:54 PM by RavenWilder

@Phoenixflame

I feel like even a lot of fans of the series miss your point in the last paragraph, so certain characters have a misaimed fandom that i doubt even the author was expecting.

EDIT: It's not fantasy, its science-fiction but the most shocking inversion of hero/villain relationship i have ever read was in The Use of Weapons by Iain Banks (RIP).

edited 13th Jun '13 2:14:08 AM by MrShine

I recommend Discworld.

Which book is Phoenix talking about? Sounds great.

The First Law trilogy, by Joe Abercrombie, beginning with The Blade Itself.

My favourite series of books, bar none.

Just got it. Man, I love Kindle for phone.

Definitely recommend Abercrombie. Interesting that Mistborn was mentioned in that I've seen (and agree with) various critics who note that despite Sanderson's optimistic tone and lack of sex and profanity, he definitely has some ties to the movement of people like Martin/Abercrombie/etc. who deconstruct traditional heroic fantasy.

The Mistborn Trilogy has some interesting deconstruction of the The Chosen One predicted by prophesy and the "brooding chosen hero" (think Paul Atredies, Jon Snow, Rand Al Thor, etc.)

One thing I also like in both Sanderson and Abercrombie is there's some deconstruction of the Lovable Rogue type and how they might not actually be a good person (and how easily they can lose the Lovable part of the equation).

edited 13th Jun '13 7:11:28 AM by Hodor

Also, on the topic of Sanderson, I just read Warbreaker. I don't think it's quite what you're describing, but I think it's similar enough to interest you nonetheless. Plus, it's available for free on his site.

That "movement" has been around much longer than those guys. The Dark Tower and The Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant are some of the most brutal deconstructions of high fantasy heroism I've seen, and those series date back to The '70s.

The First Law sounds like a Grey-and-Gray Morality.

Well, it's a story where people survive either because they're the toughest sonuva bitch out there, they got absurdly lucky, their survival benefits someone else, or they had the astounding wisdom to just quit while they're ahead. And by ahead I mean not drowning in your own blood.

edited 14th Jun '13 5:27:18 AM by Phoenixflame

Amazed noone has mentioned George Motherfucking Martin and A Song of Fire and Ice, who practically created the deconstruction subgenre. I say practically because the grandfather of deconstruction is Michael Moorcock and his Elric series.

Heh, nope.