Undertale/Deltarune

Ya I know that. Which is why I wouldn't bother with it at all, I can pop up any other game on this planet to go with it. I'd play it for anything else tho and explore the world and interact with colorful cast.

And besides, Undertale's the rare kind of a game where I don't want to be violent and go full murderhobo. Again, I have literally any other game and Undertale ain't that kind of a game.

Hope I worded it better.

> Telling Undyne that anime is not real makes you a bad person. Just... the worst.

Wait,you can do that?

Well,I know what I'm doing next!

You monster!

I am not the monster!

its them they're the ones who must pay!

I Personally have always felt that stuff like Nier and Nier Automata, SMT games, Dangan Ronpa and the most recent Fire Emblem are far better at treating the player with You Bastard! sentiments without actually treating the player as an asshole with the subtley of an anvil, but do it with a hint of subtlety that I prefer, and it becomes a much bigger punch to the gut when the curtain unravels, compared to Under Tale only becoming that way because of player choice.

If it's not through player choice, how is it more effective?

A completely scripted game that makes you do something bad and tries to say poo-poo on you for it is pretty dumb.

Spec Ops the Line was hailed as this crazy meta-narrative but your only choice against all its navel gazy horseshit was to not play it. I don't even really care about the meta narrative part, personally, but I still haven't seen a game marry its mechanics to its narrative the way this one does quite as well, yet.

So what about those with Blue-and-Orange Morality? They would see game's message and genocide route very differently.

What about those people?

I can see that.

Edited by Dhiruxide on Sep 6th 2019 at 1:48:51 PM

The game treats you like an asshole because you murdered a bunch of people. I don't get the complaint.

It's just a game that acts like your actions have consequences.

but video game

Well, what sort of morality are you thinking of, exactly?

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Sep 6th 2019 at 7:46:34 AM

@Randomness: With Nier and Nier Automata, its multiple playthroughs that add a semi Perspective Flip by showing how the Monster's you encounters grunts and roars are actually a different language entirely that actually has its own dialogue for the former, and the latter outright has the game split into two halves with the first two playthroughs being the first half, and the last two being the second half, plus a hidden five path.

For Dangan Ronpa, the narrative itself has meta commentary that each successive game in the series builds upon, and becomes more and more deranged and references elements of games themselves. That culminates up to V3.

For Fire Emblem: Three Houses, each route is its own story entirely. Except that no matter what you do, there is NO Golden Ending Whatsoever, and there is no Hidden Agenda Godlike Demon or Dragon pulling the strings, its just people and nations in true war with each other, and you contribute to it, no matter what you do.

None of these games blame the player for any of this, they simply add layers to the story that slowly make you realize how fucked up all these games are in terms of how you interact with them.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Sep 6th 2019 at 7:52:16 AM

I don't think Automata really pulls any kind of You Bastard! in the same way the original Nier does, so I wouldn't really mention it in this context.

Even then og nier isn't really like spec ops or undertale in the sense of implying that you had a "choice" (interestingly it also predates both these games). It just shows you that you didn't have all the information, and the tragedy is about how there was no real other way things could turn out any better. The point is more about how even "good" people can do horrible things if they believe they're justified in doing so or don't know any better.

I haven't played spec ops, but honestly I think the criticism of first person shooter power fantasies is enough to make it worthwhile regardless of what flaws it may have.

Which is to say, I don't think any of these games' approaches is really "wrong", or at least they all have something of value even if they aren't perfect. They're all interesting in some way.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 6th 2019 at 8:31:14 AM

Yeah, undertale Is kinda like enforced method acting, it try to you feel inside the Gámes and the cast, which Is why Is so colofull and Quirky, that why it try to Pull you into a dilema by adresing you are unkillable and all powerfull, sans fight Is a good proof: he cant defeat you and he try to annoy you over and over until you rage quit.

And in spc ops the line, it pretty goes against militaries shooters and the lack of choice, in one part the game said "did you know why you are here"? Mocking the excuse plot of Many Gámes, it also said "you US condemn any judicial stuff you are doing but you dont Care" which Is true, people give a damn here because it dosent railoading into a power fantasy.

x3 Outside of the Danganronpa example, that just seems like standard stuff.

It doesn't really seem like they're trying to force the message on the "responsibility" of the player.

I dunno, when I played the murder route, I didn't feel like the game was telling me I was an asshole for doing it. I only felt like the characters were desperate to escape or stop my murdering by any means necessary. Which, like... yeah. That's what you'd expect.

Mind, I was taking a sort of "gleefully murder everyone because I know it's just a game" mindset. The bit at the very very end came across as misaimed, like it was targeted at people who were taking it way more seriously than me.

Found some tweets from Toby Fox on Undertale being preachy.◊

If Undyne lives in the human world, you might as well let her know now.

I've never understood the argument that telling Undyne the truth is the evil option. She's going to be on the surface in like five minutes. Giving her false reassurance at this point is just going to force her to go through the same thing again, and next time there's no turning back.

You understand jokes?

No.

Looks like someone has lost their

funny bone.

I also like the Fridge conversation that points out that in a world where an especially determined human can cheat death by pure willpower, apropos of any other kind of magic, there's every possibility that what's outside the Underground is a stupidly anime-esque world.

I thought it was implied that the human only has the ability to Save and Load in the Underground because Monsters have so little natural DETERMINATION that your character is the strongest one by default. That's why Flowey lost the ability to Save and Load when you showed up, and you lose the ability to Save and Load when Flowey becomes Omega Flowey.

Cursed knowledge.