RWBY General Discussion

I feel like the conversation with Harriet and Vine made it clear what he would have done. Had he been there he would have followed through with destroying Mantle.

On War, my theory has been that it wasn't Soley about the Ace Ops vs RWBY, but about Atlas huntsman in general

My theory involved the idea that 2:15 was about Rhodes and Cinder

https://youtu.be/rGVuv1Urm1k

Except Vine and Harriet didn't know about Clover's last moments, where he wished Qrow luck in stopping Ironwood. Clover had Undying Loyalty, and his loyalty literally died the moment he was fatally impaled. So it makes it a lot more ambiguous as to what he would have chose.

It could also mean "good luck with that".

I read Clover as a Case of knowing both that he was wrong and James was wrong, but still willing to do what James asked out of said loyalty. That's why he wished Qrow good luck on Taking James down,not because he actually changed.

Honestly, I feel like Winter might be our best option in terms of guessing how Clover would have responded. While we have a grief-stricken Harriet clinging to how CLOVER WOULD HAVE FINISHED THE JOB and Vine being very vague in his response to that claim, I feel like his loyalty to Ironwood wasn't simply a matter of following orders.

"I trust James with my life" remains unexplained, but it still gives us something to work with in terms of putting some things together. The first is that it's Repetition — that's the second time that Clover stated that. But the first time, it was "I trust that man with my life" as explanation for him accepting the protagonists without question, based solely on Ironwood trusting them. But this second time, it's an emotional outburst and he drops all formalities. It's James that he trusts, not "General Ironwood". There's something deeper than simply obeying a Superior officer.

When you look back at Volume 7, you often have Clover and Winter positioned to be a duo. They are Ironwood's most trusted subordinates, and we see them exchange looks without saying a word. So that gives a sense of them being equals and being on the same wavelength, his Number Twos.

We see that he's confused and distressed about Ruby's brief message, before he closes himself off and tries to follow through. His argument to Qrow has nothing to do with duty or obedience, and everything to do with personal trust. Because again it's "JAMES" and not "General Ironwood". He doesn't know at that point why it's happening, but he's trusting that James has a good reason. But by his final moments, he's clearly having doubts about it.

So I think that if Clover had been around, he would have been in a similar position as Winter. Watching someone he cared about and trusted spiraling out of control, and seeing him make decisions that are not only wrong but make no sense.

For Vine and Elm, it's a job. For Harriet, it's all twisted up in grief and anger. For Winter and Marrow, it's losing faith in someone that gave them hope. Likewise, I think Clover would have gone with them had he been alive, since like them his investment is hinted to be more personal and less "it's the job".

More and more I lament Clover's death, more due to thinking so much more could have been done with him.

Its all the more noticeable with what James said to Oscar, that James is what his friends call him. Comes across (unintentionally maybe as it doesn't really fit with things) that Clover saw him as a friend and that's why he was loyal rather then because he was his superior.

Edited by doineedaname on Aug 10th 2021 at 9:01:31 AM

Careful now. I don't think General Penis Metaphor swings that way.

Ohhhhh-

When I mourned Torchwick all I got was flak because "there was nothing more to do with him" from this thread.

Clover was well and truly STABBED THROUGH THE HEART AND IT'S TOO LATE, BABY YOU GIVE LOVE A BAD NAME and his character arc was well to a close.

Despite wondering about an alternate timeline how Clover might have reacted to Ironwood, I think Clover had one of the more beautiful deaths in the show thus far.

Edited by FOFD on Aug 10th 2021 at 10:20:44 AM

It required he drop his brain and focus only on Qrow instead of the escaped Serial Killer, which gave Tyrian the opportunity to push Qrow around and led to Clover getting impaled thanks to the two getting engrossed in their emotional outburst to notice Tyrian sneaking up behind him.

Clover. Had. One of the most beautiful deaths. In the show. Shut your face.

I used to be pro-Mêlée à Trois but every time I rewatch it now I cringe like, "ugh, why didn't they make this a little more hectic, they could have made it seem a little more like Qrow was just out of options, or make Qrow and Clover team up and then betray each other and then Tyrian sneak-attacks Clover or something."

Yeah that fight could have made more sense. I feel like Qrow's reticence over the matter in the following Volume makes up for it but I can't block the stupidity of Clover's actions anymore either.

I have no problem with the death itself. It's the fact the circumstances leading up to said death don't feel particularly earned that's my issue.

The fact that between Qrow, Clover and Tyrian end with the last being the smarter fighter really tell you something.

I'm not sure about the Clover and Winter comparison. As while there are simmularities there are also many differences.

Both are driven by loyalty to James, that is more personal then 'just' Following orders(In Winters case, he was a father figure to her) but in Winters case she was still trying to convince herself that What James was doing was right, so when she finally saw how far he had fallen she turned on him. While Clover, as said above, seemed to already know he was Wrong, and simply followed him in spite of it.

And even before turning on James, she tried to give the gang a head start rather then Arrest them, whereas Clover tried to arrest Qrow and threatened Robyn if she intervened.

...I haven't been keeping up with the Konbini shorts, but according to the FANDOM wiki, they've brought back Heyman? I guess it makes some sense, since unlike Heywood and Mignogna (or even Haddock, really) he's basically just been a dick, but it does surprise me after they replaced him for the RvB Death Battle.

Gonna need a citation on that, since Joel himself said he would never work with RT again, so even if they wanted to hire him again, I highly doubt they would be able to convince him.

I just checked the credits on "I Hate My Dad Simulator," (17:07, FIRST exclusive, but it's not exactly a spoiler), and yep. And right next to the new voice for Port, too.

Might just be an old recording. I think he said how they had him do a bunch of those before his firing(They used them for some red vs blue shorts)

"When I mourned Torchwick all I got was flak because "there was nothing more to do with him" from this thread.

Clover was well and truly STABBED THROUGH THE HEART AND IT'S TOO LATE, BABY YOU GIVE LOVE A BAD NAME and his character arc was well to a close.

"

I think there is a issue here on how the fandom use the word "wasted" in general.

The more I see it, there at least two use of the work: when people feel teh arc of a chararter wasnt well done or was badly handled in one way of another and there are people who feel a chararter was wasted because they didnt fully explored their potencial as chararter.

To used some comparation. Watts feel like fully explored chararter to the point even is death fosent feel left hangling, sure you could explore is motivation of what exactly happened and why he turn to salem but they arent really fully necesary because we see the full extend of is chararter, to contrast is roman torchwick, a chararter who fully did what he need to do and them go without overbearing the narrative with him(which happen a lot in show like lana lang in smallvile or even mercury and emerald who sit there for volumes without speaking role), BUT he feel the kind of chararter you could just wash more of it and know better and therefore feel wasted, when "unfulliled" is more apropiated.

Finally they are chararters who fit boths and fandom lach on them A LOT, a good example is darth maul, being this mute boss that kill qui gon feel unfuillil and his potencial squander, when fiolini use him again he turn in one of the best chararter.

Clover feel the "unfullied" he build is storyline just fine but there this nagging feel the would be more to it, like his relation to Qrow, Winter, James and specially Robyn, I often feel Robyn was atlas Qrow to Clover winter, the "chaotic good" dealing with the "lawfull one".

in general Atlas feel "Kinda" wasted in that it can tell much more, so it really need it.

Clover isn't wasted.

He's a good meat to stuff into the fridge.

He wasn't stuffed in the fridge. His death was a completion of his own charachter, where he listened to James instead of doing the right thing.

An interesting point raised elsewhere, but it made me consider.

The series tends to flow so much better when its possible to view everything at once. The waiting between episodes and volumes tends to effect the pacing and tone, but even stuff that I'd criticized in the past (vol 4 - 5) are so much better on a re-watch when I can see the threads building up to something. It also in general flows better, being able to binge it.

I have to wonder if we will likewise look back on Volumes 7 and 8 after the third part concludes next year. If things we're iffy about now will seem very different, with the trilogy of volumes completed.

For example, I think V8 really followed through in terms of Clover's arc and why his death had narrative purpose and weight. We saw how essential he was to things functioning, and how everyone around him basically fell apart without him (and his "cheat code" Semblance). I'm pretty satisfied so far with how Clover's death turned into showing how all these people had become co-dependent and were trying to use him to avoid their deeper issues. And shit fell apart without him, Qrow and the Ace-Ops and even Winter and James all kind of spiraling without Clover there to smooth everything over. Ripping open the whole "Ha Ha Friendship is for Kids!" stuff, exposing how dysfunctional Atlas is and how James' ideal team system was a mess.

Plus, looking back and realizing he was the Sacrificial Lion that established how Atlas was screwed. And basically out of the people that were at the meeting/dinner at Schnee Manor, basically everyone but Winter and Robyn (and maybe Camilla) are dead now. Most of the leadership of the kingdom are dead, a lot of characters died, and the kingdom itself fell to the point it's the lost city of this world.

This sort of idea is why I kinda want to see what the wave of critiques towards RWBY would be like for new people when the series is either done or about 90% done. I know some of the things I used to love but then hated have now resided back to "I like it" after they've ended, so hopefully the same would be true for RWBY.

I don't think any level of Better on DVD will ever make what happened to Penny a good idea.

Oh, far from it. It'll only fix the pacing issues and even then, only by a bit. The character actions and plot decisions are still gonna end up being a different matter altogether and if you don't like it, sorry, then apparently it's not the show, it's you because you dared to think outside of RWBY's box.

Edited by Psyga315 on Aug 12th 2021 at 5:52:27 AM

You may want to add Sarcasm Mode to that last part there.