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Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

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Sep 21st 2019 at 9:56:59 AM

There's also Cheshire, a character who was sold into sexual slavery as a child being depicted as an evil femme fatale.

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Sep 21st 2019 at 11:39:03 AM

The Green Arrow thing notably got retconned because Shado had been treated as a maybe love interest for a decade so they just made it so, yes, he had consensual sex with her while cheating on Diana.

Which opened its own can of worms.

There's also Cheshire, a character who was sold into sexual slavery as a child being depicted as an evil femme fatale.

It's not just assault either but the fact characters can regularly leap over the Moral Event Horizon and then get treated as Antihero characters. She's also nuked a country, killed millions, and is treated as Roy's iffy ex.

Comic books make no sense beyond the 2-year Rule of Wrestling.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2019 at 11:42:04 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Sep 21st 2019 at 1:18:43 PM

The only place Cheshire was ever treated as an antihero (and even then for one season) was the Young Justice show. And she's a lot less evil in that show than her comic counterpart.

A closer example of what you're talking about is Slade Wilson who was treated as an anti-villain at worst despite being a murderer and rapist. I remember his fans being upset when Geoff Johns retconned it that Slade drugged Terra into being his mole in the Titans. Even though was only slightly worse than what Slade did in the original story.

The Green Arrow thing notably got retconned because Shado had been treated as a maybe love interest for a decade so they just made it so, yes, he had consensual sex with her while cheating on Diana.

When did that happen? I know Gail Simone finally acknowledged it as rape in her Birds of Prey run.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 21st 2019 at 1:21:31 AM

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Sep 21st 2019 at 2:12:46 PM

https://comicbookandbeyond.com/green-arrow-was-raped-by-shado/

I don't remember the specifics but basically, it's retconend that Oliver lied to Dinah about it.

It may have been Blackest Night.

Edit:

http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1856672

Ah, it was Blackest Night.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2019 at 2:13:49 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Sep 21st 2019 at 2:44:12 PM

Oh, I remember that now. personally, I never took that at face value given the Black lantern Oliver was trying to get a rise out of Dinah.

Darthwyn Mother Goddess from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Mother Goddess
Sep 22nd 2019 at 7:51:01 AM

Wait how does one force Superman to make a porno?

Euodiachloris Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:02:11 AM

[up]Dumbass plot armour doled out by writers who really need to step back and ask themselves WTF they're doing with their lives?

Ultimatum ◕ ◡ ◕ Disasturbator from England Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕ ◡ ◕ Disasturbator
Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:13:21 AM

> Wait how does one force Superman to make a porno?

They use pink Kryptonite

-badum tish-

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smokeycut Not Your Atom Bomb Baby from Rochester NY Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Not Your Atom Bomb Baby
Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:18:20 AM

Being serious, it was mind control.

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M84 Such heroic nonsense from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Such heroic nonsense
Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:20:05 AM

Serious answer: it was a New God of Apokolips named Sleez, who was a childhood playmate of Darkseid (before Darkseid kicked him out because of his pointless depravity) with potent Mind Control abilities.

Yes, Sleez was petty enough and nasty enough to use Mind Control on Big Barda and Superman, two heavyhitter superbeings, for nothing else but making porn.

Edited by M84 on Sep 22nd 2019 at 11:23:06 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum ◕ ◡ ◕ Disasturbator from England Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕ ◡ ◕ Disasturbator
Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:26:48 AM

Apparently he wanted to make enough money from said porno to build an army to fight Darkseid

Also the wiki said it was a failed attempt so I assume the mind control wore off

Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 22nd 2019 at 3:29:32 PM

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CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Sep 22nd 2019 at 3:08:41 PM

I feel it was a highly contrived reason to get them to have sex versus, you know, consensual sex.

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
unknowing "GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!" from somewhere..
"GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!"
Sep 23rd 2019 at 2:15:00 AM

[up]Something I have noticed is that, when you dont have real people porn were the point is the preformance and everything is a chessy set up, writer create hilarious and outstanding and overcomplicated way to set up the situations.

"There is only one truth in this life and that is DESPAIR!"
M84 Such heroic nonsense from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Such heroic nonsense
Sep 23rd 2019 at 2:45:57 AM

The story also showcased just how very petty Darkseid can be. The Lord of Apokolips takes time out of his schedule scheming to conquer the universe to show Scott Free aka Mr. Miracle (Big Barda's husband) one of the tapes Sleez made "starring" Big Barda. Darkseid's kind of an asshole like that. There's a reason Santa always gives him a lump of coal every Christmas.

Edited by M84 on Sep 23rd 2019 at 5:47:18 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Sep 23rd 2019 at 3:53:22 AM

Since we are on the subject of Superman, there's something I'd like to discuss in regards to him and Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman is often considered, if not a physical equal to Superman, then at least a rival. At least she should be on paper. But I often see push back against this, whether it's writers having him (or characters he's easily beaten) stomp her or fans who say that her being Superman's equal would make her too powerful (ignoring she would still be lacking other powers but whatever). And something I've wondered if, beyond this simply being Superman fans who don't want him to be upstaged as the strongest in the DCU, is if superhero comics have spent so much time pushing male characters as the symbol of strength that if a female character gets that role there is push back.

Sep 23rd 2019 at 5:53:04 AM

I know there is a segment of fans that INSIST that Wonder Woman is the only woman 'Worthy' of Superman's affections that he could never settle for a 'normal human' like Lois Lane.

This led to turning Lois into a complete witch in the new 52 and the shoehorned paring of Supes/WW in the comics...which was overseen by Eddie Berganza which is a whole other can of worms...

M84 Such heroic nonsense from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Such heroic nonsense
Sep 23rd 2019 at 6:02:53 AM

Personally I think WW and Supes should just stay colleagues and friends.

As far as power goes...I do think that in terms of raw strength, Supes should have an edge. However, I also think that WW should be the better fighter, considering she spent her whole life growing up in a warrior culture, while Supes is a farmboy from Kansas.

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing "GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!" from somewhere..
"GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!"
Sep 23rd 2019 at 7:08:26 AM

[up]Yeah, Super always have best raw power byt Diana is in the middle of batman hability and supes power, making her better in the aereas they lack, like for example having combat focus(which super dosent have).

that is something DCCU does well: super lack of combat experience is why faora kick is ass and why zod take the edge, meanwhile Diana combate experience give something of a edge against Doomsday, who is a big dumb monster

"There is only one truth in this life and that is DESPAIR!"
VeryVileVillian Who did you expect? God? Devil? No, it's just me from Russia Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Who did you expect? God? Devil? No, it's just me
Sep 23rd 2019 at 8:17:35 AM

[up][up][up]I remember how hard New 52 tried to push Superman/Wonder Woman, so hard that they didn't have any chemistry and reasons to become a couple in the first place, because DC thought that "power match" is the reason enough. Ron the Death Eater treatment of Lois didn't help, nor did some writers claims that they can't see Superman and Lois as a couple, as they write her as "witch".

which was overseen by Eddie Berganza which is a whole other can of worms...

Em, why? Did he had any scandals or stupid ideas before?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Sep 23rd 2019 at 6:18:55 PM

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smokeycut Not Your Atom Bomb Baby from Rochester NY Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Not Your Atom Bomb Baby
Sep 23rd 2019 at 8:21:03 AM

He was fired for decades of sexual harassment.

Everyone's favorite person
Sep 23rd 2019 at 9:14:51 AM

[up] Yeah that. From what I understand when Greg R came back to the title for the Rebirth Relaunch one of his terms was to have Wonder Woman removed from his control as Editor. He thought it was rather distasteful that a known (yet somehow still employed) sexual harasser was overseeing the creative decisions on one of the most well known female superhero and feminist icon to boot.

Sep 23rd 2019 at 9:15:31 AM

Even beyond the lack of chemistry and poor writing of Lois, the Super Wonder relationship is almost always written as being development for Clark and expansion of his mythos. Diana either never feels like an equal character in the relationship (see the Superman and Wonder Woman book released during the New 52) or she's often horribly written (Injustice, Frank Miller's TDKR verse). Even the children they have in some continuities end up taking more after Clark than Diana.

And yet the Super Wonder fandom completely ignores this. Some have even defended Miller's depiction of the two characters.

[up]I believe Berganza had actually already been fired before Rucka came aboard.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 23rd 2019 at 9:18:59 AM

Sep 23rd 2019 at 9:20:27 AM

The problem is they don't WANT to see the Super/Wonder pairing as equals, they really don't consider Diana her own person in the relationship. She is the 'Worthy Prize' for Superman, he's the worlds strongest being therefore he is entitled to have the worlds strongest woman as his proper consort. No other woman is "good" enough for him.

I got no trouble with Super/Wondy as a paring...I just want it WELL WRITTEN where you don't make Lois an utter witch and Diana a non-entity in it.

[up] Timeline is weird, I think he was still employed when Greg got the offer but by the time it really got rolling he was out or almost out the door. My Source, a co-creator on one of Greg's independent books, confirmed the change of editors as part of his terms.

Edited by ShadowWingLG on Sep 23rd 2019 at 11:23:11 AM

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Sep 23rd 2019 at 9:27:52 AM

I think Superman and Wonder Woman would be a great pair but I have no interest in portraying as shitting on Lois Lane or some sort of power-couple where they only analyze their powers.

I'd want it to be Superman the Rural Farm Boy vs. Diana the Godlike Princess.

Science and Magic.

"I'm just a guy from Kansas" vs. "It is my royal divine duty to save the world."

Be very interesting.

I think like 0 people who argue about this pairing care about the personalities, though.

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
unknowing "GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!" from somewhere..
"GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!"
Sep 23rd 2019 at 11:13:31 AM

I kinda like more the chemestry Diana have with Batman in the justice league cartoon, she seen very open with her even with all is issues(she is diana, cant give a damn about it).

Also I feel some writer just dont like lois because is a old trope of super hero with muggle girlfriend, which can be a little bit limiting for some, just look remi mary jane or MCU jane which is the new mary jane....

"There is only one truth in this life and that is DESPAIR!"

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