Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

There's also Cheshire, a character who was sold into sexual slavery as a child being depicted as an evil femme fatale.

The Green Arrow thing notably got retconned because Shado had been treated as a maybe love interest for a decade so they just made it so, yes, he had consensual sex with her while cheating on Diana.

Which opened its own can of worms.

It's not just assault either but the fact characters can regularly leap over the Moral Event Horizon and then get treated as Antihero characters. She's also nuked a country, killed millions, and is treated as Roy's iffy ex.

Comic books make no sense beyond the 2-year Rule of Wrestling.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2019 at 11:42:04 AM

The only place Cheshire was ever treated as an antihero (and even then for one season) was the Young Justice show. And she's a lot less evil in that show than her comic counterpart.

A closer example of what you're talking about is Slade Wilson who was treated as an anti-villain at worst despite being a murderer and rapist. I remember his fans being upset when Geoff Johns retconned it that Slade drugged Terra into being his mole in the Titans. Even though was only slightly worse than what Slade did in the original story.

When did that happen? I know Gail Simone finally acknowledged it as rape in her Birds of Prey run.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 21st 2019 at 1:21:31 AM

https://comicbookandbeyond.com/green-arrow-was-raped-by-shado/

I don't remember the specifics but basically, it's retconend that Oliver lied to Dinah about it.

It may have been Blackest Night.

Edit:

http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1856672

Ah, it was Blackest Night.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2019 at 2:13:49 AM

Oh, I remember that now. personally, I never took that at face value given the Black lantern Oliver was trying to get a rise out of Dinah.

Wait how does one force Superman to make a porno?

Dumbass plot armour doled out by writers who really need to step back and ask themselves WTF they're doing with their lives?

> Wait how does one force Superman to make a porno?

They use pink Kryptonite

-badum tish-

Being serious, it was mind control.

Serious answer: it was a New God of Apokolips named Sleez, who was a childhood playmate of Darkseid (before Darkseid kicked him out because of his pointless depravity) with potent Mind Control abilities.

Yes, Sleez was petty enough and nasty enough to use Mind Control on Big Barda and Superman, two heavyhitter superbeings, for nothing else but making porn.

Edited by M84 on Sep 22nd 2019 at 11:23:06 PM

Apparently he wanted to make enough money from said porno to build an army to fight Darkseid

Also the wiki said it was a failed attempt so I assume the mind control wore off

Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 22nd 2019 at 3:29:32 PM

I feel it was a highly contrived reason to get them to have sex versus, you know, consensual sex.

Something I have noticed is that, when you dont have real people porn were the point is the preformance and everything is a chessy set up, writer create hilarious and outstanding and overcomplicated way to set up the situations.

The story also showcased just how very petty Darkseid can be. The Lord of Apokolips takes time out of his schedule scheming to conquer the universe to show Scott Free aka Mr. Miracle (Big Barda's husband) one of the tapes Sleez made "starring" Big Barda. Darkseid's kind of an asshole like that. There's a reason Santa always gives him a lump of coal every Christmas.

Edited by M84 on Sep 23rd 2019 at 5:47:18 PM

Since we are on the subject of Superman, there's something I'd like to discuss in regards to him and Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman is often considered, if not a physical equal to Superman, then at least a rival. At least she should be on paper. But I often see push back against this, whether it's writers having him (or characters he's easily beaten) stomp her or fans who say that her being Superman's equal would make her too powerful (ignoring she would still be lacking other powers but whatever). And something I've wondered if, beyond this simply being Superman fans who don't want him to be upstaged as the strongest in the DCU, is if superhero comics have spent so much time pushing male characters as the symbol of strength that if a female character gets that role there is push back.

I know there is a segment of fans that INSIST that Wonder Woman is the only woman 'Worthy' of Superman's affections that he could never settle for a 'normal human' like Lois Lane.

This led to turning Lois into a complete witch in the new 52 and the shoehorned paring of Supes/WW in the comics...which was overseen by Eddie Berganza which is a whole other can of worms...

Personally I think WW and Supes should just stay colleagues and friends.

As far as power goes...I do think that in terms of raw strength, Supes should have an edge. However, I also think that WW should be the better fighter, considering she spent her whole life growing up in a warrior culture, while Supes is a farmboy from Kansas.

Yeah, Super always have best raw power byt Diana is in the middle of batman hability and supes power, making her better in the aereas they lack, like for example having combat focus(which super dosent have).

that is something DCCU does well: super lack of combat experience is why faora kick is ass and why zod take the edge, meanwhile Diana combate experience give something of a edge against Doomsday, who is a big dumb monster

I remember how hard New 52 tried to push Superman/Wonder Woman, so hard that they didn't have any chemistry and reasons to become a couple in the first place, because DC thought that "power match" is the reason enough. Ron the Death Eater treatment of Lois didn't help, nor did some writers claims that they can't see Superman and Lois as a couple, as they write her as "witch".

Em, why? Did he had any scandals or stupid ideas before?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Sep 23rd 2019 at 6:18:55 PM

He was fired for decades of sexual harassment.

Yeah that. From what I understand when Greg R came back to the title for the Rebirth Relaunch one of his terms was to have Wonder Woman removed from his control as Editor. He thought it was rather distasteful that a known (yet somehow still employed) sexual harasser was overseeing the creative decisions on one of the most well known female superhero and feminist icon to boot.

Even beyond the lack of chemistry and poor writing of Lois, the Super Wonder relationship is almost always written as being development for Clark and expansion of his mythos. Diana either never feels like an equal character in the relationship (see the Superman and Wonder Woman book released during the New 52) or she's often horribly written (Injustice, Frank Miller's TDKR verse). Even the children they have in some continuities end up taking more after Clark than Diana.

And yet the Super Wonder fandom completely ignores this. Some have even defended Miller's depiction of the two characters.

I believe Berganza had actually already been fired before Rucka came aboard.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 23rd 2019 at 9:18:59 AM

The problem is they don't WANT to see the Super/Wonder pairing as equals, they really don't consider Diana her own person in the relationship. She is the 'Worthy Prize' for Superman, he's the worlds strongest being therefore he is entitled to have the worlds strongest woman as his proper consort. No other woman is "good" enough for him.

I got no trouble with Super/Wondy as a paring...I just want it WELL WRITTEN where you don't make Lois an utter witch and Diana a non-entity in it.

Timeline is weird, I think he was still employed when Greg got the offer but by the time it really got rolling he was out or almost out the door. My Source, a co-creator on one of Greg's independent books, confirmed the change of editors as part of his terms.

Edited by ShadowWingLG on Sep 23rd 2019 at 11:23:11 AM

I think Superman and Wonder Woman would be a great pair but I have no interest in portraying as shitting on Lois Lane or some sort of power-couple where they only analyze their powers.

I'd want it to be Superman the Rural Farm Boy vs. Diana the Godlike Princess.

Science and Magic.

"I'm just a guy from Kansas" vs. "It is my royal divine duty to save the world."

Be very interesting.

I think like 0 people who argue about this pairing care about the personalities, though.

I kinda like more the chemestry Diana have with Batman in the justice league cartoon, she seen very open with her even with all is issues(she is diana, cant give a damn about it).

Also I feel some writer just dont like lois because is a old trope of super hero with muggle girlfriend, which can be a little bit limiting for some, just look remi mary jane or MCU jane which is the new mary jane....