Pillars of Eternity

(@Unsung) I've no idea why you refer to it as the KOTORII issue, but I played that game on launch and haven't ever engaged with the fandom since, so I'm out of loop I suppose.

I did choose the word bleak on purpose, though. One definition of it is "Lacking in warmth, life, or kindliness". The world of Deadfire is more or less so. Again, though, I have no problems with this alone. Planescape is my favourite game, at least in this ouvre, and it's world is quite bleak. But in addition to its world, the stories of Deadfire are structured in such a manner that the outcomes are often quite bleak as well. To me this seems very much an intentional choice. Which is fine, but it can make the game rather monotonous and hopeless.

I gotta say that the second paragraph of your reply made me do an eyeroll. Where in there do I say that I need to "succeed absolutely and unambiguously" in a quest? What I am saying is that I want to succeed or fail by choosing to take action that's consistent with my character/my beliefs/what ever makes you choose one way or the other in a game like this, in a way that's consistent with the setting and established rules. It's a limited game, so some level of railroading is bound to happen and excusable, certainly, but the options should reflect somewhat what I actually want to do. If the consequences of what I want to do are catastrophic, I'll live with that, but not giving the ability to choose and then telling me I've failed will drive me up the damn wall

I don't want to go too much into the weeds here, since I already did with the last post, but if speaking in the context of the quest I just covered: One fairly simple potential way to complete the quest in a somewhat satisfactory a fashion would be to allow my character to snatch the missive, open it, go "Huh, I guessed it was something like this. I'm not gonna play ball.", get into a fight over it with Maia and if I can't convince her on the orders being wrong having us part ways. Heck it could even come to blows, if Maia makes it clear that she's going to follow through on her orders anyway and that not jiving with my characters views.

There's an element of that at least at the end of the quest line, but it should be possible early on as well before the bad choices have a chance to pile on one another. There's nothing absolutely, unambiguously successful about an end like that. The world would not be much of a better place and I'd be down a team member (which is somewhat problematic game development wise, but acceptable). Yet it would be my active choice and I'd be fine with it. It's narratively coherent.

Quite often in games like these when it comes to quest writing the compelling question isn't "Can the player complete this?" but rather "How will the player solve this?" Deadfire has a terrible habit of stymieing the player when it comes to the second question and presenting just bad options.

Anyway, this is coming dangerously close to being analogous with the second banned topic on these boards and how certain complaints were answered with "You just didn't like it because it was sad", so I'll leave the subject be for now.

Edited by GabrieltheThird on May 30th 2020 at 6:01:44 PM

You're allowed to call it bleak. I'm saying that if that's how you're using it, then I misunderstood the semantics. I understand how you'd feel that way and I have no problem with you not liking the game because of it.

I called it the KOTOR 2 issue just because a lot of people had similar issues with KOTOR 2 and its quests, that's all. Feeling like there was no right answer to a lot of them. I'm not saying they're wrong either. (There being no right answer is in fact what I like about these games, but I don't expect everyone to agree.) I'm not dismissing your opinion and I didn't mean it to come across that way.

Edited by Unsung on May 30th 2020 at 9:00:23 AM

My take so far is that Deadfire is a cyberpunk game dressed up as an epic fantasy. so like you go in expecting to be the farm boy who changes the world, not someone caught in the crushing gears of capitalism.

Little wonder Obsidian's next game was The Outer Worlds, then.

Well, if it is indeed more depressing than the first game and your PC can't fix anything, taht could def invoke DA 2 comparisons.

I mean, you totally can fix some things. Major things, even. There are just some gotcha moments and some cases where at least one person or faction ends up unhappy no matter what. As Obsidian will do.

I wouldn't compared it to Kotor 2. Coz in Deadfire the bad consequences tend to be telegraphed, and not in a way that players are forced to ignore the signals because of But Thou Must!.

Kotor 2 has this weird thing where it likes to nullify a good choice with an out of nowhere development (the most infamous example being the "Help a guy and he gets mugged later and the game, via Kreia, asks you if you feel responsible")

Here it's telegraphed. You know who's super attached to their factions and therefore who's gonna be doing terrible if their faction loses. And you know who isn't so attached.

Seems like a matter of degree, of how much justification/telegraphing you personally need to maintain your suspension of disbelief. Kreia spends the whole game telling you about how even actions undertaken with purely the best of intentions can have negative consequences beyond your line of sight, and there's nothing particularly improbable about a mugging on Wretched Hive moon Nar Shaddaa. It doesn't really seem like it comes out of nowhere, it's just... oddly convenient timing for her lecture. But then again she *can* see the future. And mind-control people. And make shit up for her own ends, though I think maybe you do find a dead body after the fact in this case.

The idea that taking the "good" route on a quest should inherently lead to a positive outcome in the world is being deliberately deconstructed in a lot of Obsidan games, and the company's always been fairly up-front about that. Some players might find that un-fun, or heavy-handed, and it isn't really *fair*... but, to paraphrase another franchise, it is possible to do everything right and still lose, and that's life.

If you don't like it when games deliberately screw with you like that and it makes you not want to play the game anymore, of course, that's totally fair.

Edited by Unsung on May 30th 2020 at 4:25:46 AM

The thing about Kreia's argument is that the game is eager to pet itself on the back that it refuses to give you a chance to actually address how dumb it is, functionally. You're basically saddled with agreeing with her dumb point, or going for a "Well I am good and I will continue to do good thing" without ever actually addressing how stupid her point is. Which is one of the many problems with Kreia as a whole.

(Should point out that by Avellone's own words, Kreia is his mouth piece about his opinions/problems with Star Wars and RP Gs. Which is why the player's not given the chance to really actually challenge those)

Edited by Ghilz on May 30th 2020 at 8:05:25 AM

I've seen people accuse Durance of being Kreia 2.0. I'm not sure how accurate that comparison is - I tuned Kreia out rather quickly - but Durance's great advantage is that you can leave him muttering to himself by the side of the road and carry on blithely.

Also the game doesn't make itself about Durance.

Admittedly if you don't like Kreia, it's not much of a game. I really, really liked Kreia, though.

But I like her as the villain she clearly is from the time she starts mind-wiping Atton in cutscenes. You have to keep her in your party, but you're not necessarily supposed to agree with her. Avellone is also on record saying that he writes most of his mouthpiece characters as villains with the specific intention of making the player want to refute them, and he usually does give you the tools you need to do it. In TSL's case, from what I understand, if the game hadn't been so rushed they did want to soften its critique of Star Wars in general. Like making it so you could talk Kreia down so that she wasn't the final boss. Even in the game as it is if you do manage to defeat her, if your influence is high, she's glad someone was finally able to stop her and prove her wrong.

Part of her thing is that her dialogue is, despite appearances, mostly rhetorical. She wants to provoke you, not convince you. You end up getting more influence with her by saying things like "I'll think about it" than you do for just agreeing with her.

And I do like characters where the dialogue has little traps like that. It makes it feel less passive and info dump-y. Sagani is actually my favourite for that in the first POE. Durance is basically like Kreia if she were less self-aware. You do get noticeably more chances to call him out on his inconsistencies, though, even if he mostly shrugs it off or insults you for your trouble.

Edited by Unsung on Jun 8th 2020 at 10:52:31 AM

Do Dispositions subtract from one another at all? I have Passionate and Rational 1. It's so weird.

"Nope. There's at least one conversation where someone will be apprehensive upon meeting you because you have a Deceptive reputation, but can be convinced to help you out if you're known to be Honest."

Do they fix this in Deadfire? This seems like a big problem. It does explain why I'm both Passionate and Rational, though. I figured the Dispositions that were opposed "subtracted" from one another. My Honest 3 could go down if I lied too much, for example. But I guess not.

I love the little window that shows you the details of the battle. You don't see this in many JRPG's. I saw it in Golden Sun and was so happy because it was "quaint." But it looks like some RP Gs have it to this day. All RP Gs should have it, honestly.

Also apparently Deadfire is coming to Switch. Well, I just learned about this, maybe you all already knew I think it's a good omen, especially if it does okay on the Switch. Maybe it foretells of a continuation of the franchise. Of course, the Switch is ludicrously expensive these days. I really do regret not buying one a year or two ago when SMTV was announced. My GF really wants one for Animal Crossing but I can't afford this shit. Maybe if it goes down I'll get her a Switch or at least Deadfire while another friend or family gets her the console. She's the one who got me into WRPG's in the first place.

I was looking at my Journal and was reminded of whatther Steward told me about the monster deep beneath Caed Nua. I was like "I'm here, why not see what happens."

I used a grappling hook to go down the hole to Level 5 and died a couple times to teh Dakr and Xuurips. It wasn't a hard fight, I'm just not great at the game. Plus I had killed a Drake before in that one area where they're just kinda flying around all over the place. In any event, I was more concerned about getting out. I didn't think a modern, user friendly game like this would trap you but I wasn't sure. I made my way out eventually and realized I could have just taken stairs instead of going down the hole. Some nice fat loots out of all this, though.

I didn't realize Paladins in this game didn't get to choose their deities. They do in Kingmker and I have already fought many Paladins of Berath at Raedric's. Oh well. I'm just a little disappointed and have to change my plans for Deadfire.

Sleeping at Brighthollow, I awoke to a vision of Durance and then chatted with him. My initial suspicion about his staff and its connection to the Godhammer were on the mark but his characer continues to evolve in ineresting. Now, after learning of his trauma of using the Godhammer, he reminds me of those who were at Malachor V in KOTOR II when the Mass Shadow Generat was used. He's suffering the same kind of PTSD and even has the "spiritual damage" the Exile suffered. Throw in Magran turning her favor away from him and he seems quite the pitiable wretch. Understanding he's an old, traumatized soldier who is doing everything in his power to get his goddess to speak to him again casts him in a new light and makes his harshness more desperate and also somewhat sympathetic. He really hates it if you press him on an issue, like suggesting Magran's silence is his, Durance's, trial. Its a big difference between him and Kreia or Ulysses.

Made it to Endless Paths Level 7. I'm also Level 7 now. There's this big fight with Greater Blights and some other monsters and it was a nightmare for me. Granted, I had Sagani and Aloth off on missions and i was using Kana for his quest stuff. With my preferred party and some preparation, I probably could have won. But fuck, I spent all day on this shit and totally forgot about plot and how I started the day. It's like somebody noted when I was reading up on all this, you can't just put a dungeon beneah our home base and not expect people to charge in and try to get it all done with at once.

Think I'm getting a bit burned out on just doing gameplay quests, want some actual plot. This game isn't as bad about it as Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights but it still feels like it's, say, at least 60/40 in favor of gameplay. That's great and all but eventually I wanna do some plot and I'll just have to leave the evil monster beneath my keep for later. There's apparently 15 floors of this shit, anyway.

Does that really apply outside of that one choice? From what I remember, most of the light side options work out pretty well, both in sidequests and outside. Talia proves a wise ruler, the Ithorians work out and even prove to be the most personally profitable choice, Nar Shadaa is vaguely but permanently improved by your LS dealings. It's been a while since I played, but I can't actually remember that many cases where light-side sidequests outright backfire.

Edited by Lavaeolus on May 30th 2020 at 5:57:58 PM

Sagani? I don't remember anything particularly tricky about her conversations.

^ They completely change her ending and the game doesn't totally telegraph how much she's actually listening to you. A lot of people found that frustrating, not unlike how Maia's loyalty quest deliberately lies to you and how her ending changes depending on your influence with her and what you tell her you think of the RDC's actions and policies. I like all that.

^^^ Paladins are powered by the various orders they can swear themselves to, which can include service to the gods. The original options didn't allow P Cs to choose those orders, but one of the later free patches to the second game let you be one of Woedica's paladins, the order of the Iron Flail. That's what you were thinking of right? You could even still be a wizard, since Deadfire introduces multiclassing.

You can have contradictory Dispositions in POE. It's deliberate. If you're both Deceptive and Honest, or Cruel and Benevolent, etc, there are characters who'll be suitably confused. Like in FNV, how you can gain both positive and negative reputation with a faction, with Mixed as its own separate track. This isn't quite as responsive, but they kept improving on it with the DLC and the second game.

One thing the sequel improved over the first game was unique equipment. I really liked how you could take different enchantment paths with some gear.

Ah, I guess I just find that... normal. As in I expect the things you tell your companions to affect their endings. Though it's true that they didn't spell it out as obviously with Sagani as with the others.

Yes, but usually it's really obvious when they're listening, and with Sagani it's a little more subtle. She can come across as if she's past caring, but she's actually mulling it over through each conversation, and it adds up over time, it's not just a single decision point that pushes her one way or the other. And she has four different endings, instead of just one or two. It's a little thing, don't get me wrong. I still like it.

Edited by Unsung on May 31st 2020 at 7:59:21 AM

Are you sure about that first bit about being a Woedica Paladin in POE 2? The wiki doesn't say anything about it.

And I just assumed this game was like Kingmaker and a Paladin, just like a Cleric/Priest, can choose their deity at character creation

Edited by Nikkolas on May 31st 2020 at 9:02:18 AM

Yep, it was added as a subclass sometime after the game's release. I'm tempted to try one if I ever play the game again, but I dunno if I could keep up the requisite amount of evil.

...Steel Garrote, I meant, not Iron Flail. The Iron Flail is something else, part of the White March, Part II DLC. I'd recommend the White March, btw, it's great. Liked it better than most of the main game, myself.

^ You could always prioritize Rational and Honest (because they're all about keeping vows), and reserve Cruelty for enemies that really deserve it. Play kind of a "good" Steel Garrote.

Edited by Unsung on May 31st 2020 at 9:31:19 AM

That's the direction I'd probably go. I did manage a run of the first game as a Bleak Walker - not a very observant Bleak Walker, but no one came along and kicked me out of the order, so I guess I got away with it.

Edited by Tarlonniel on May 31st 2020 at 10:53:24 AM

I don't think Pillars 1 has actually many "gotcha" moments. I think there are like 3 or 4 and one of those is "...Oh of course, why couldn't they just start the machine again if you didn't destroy it..."

That was more me talking about 2, yeah. 1 is pretty fair-play about its reveals.