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Kexruct nonarySpade from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
May 30th 2012 at 8:50:34 PM

It just seems needlessly whiny and doesn't add anything to the wiki. I don't even know how it got past YKTTW, to be honest.

edit: Crap, forgot the "d." Could anyone here point me in the direction of the rename thread?

edited 30th May '12 8:55:16 PM by Kexruct

They call themselves seamstresses -Feet Of Clay
May 30th 2012 at 9:05:22 PM

Took care of that for you.

It's the icon that looks like a page with a green circle right above the OP.

edited 30th May '12 9:05:44 PM by DarkConfidant

Feather7603 Devil's Advocate from Yggdrasil
May 30th 2012 at 9:41:08 PM

I've heard a lot about this trope. In Real Life. Things like people complaining that the bags weigh so much after they've been shopping for clothes, or that the free coffee in the office isn't perfect, and stuff like that. Often with a lampshade about how senseless those problems really are in comparison to actual problems.

In fiction? Well, it exists.

edited 31st May '12 1:00:31 AM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
May 30th 2012 at 9:54:32 PM

This could work as an audience reaction, especially to tropes like Friends rent control where people are insulated from the problems they'd have in real life (which are considered too mundane to be dramatic or funny) or contrived problems like unwanted harem. You do sometimes see it invoked in-universe, but we'd more than one example for that.

Feather7603 Devil's Advocate from Yggdrasil
May 30th 2012 at 10:21:30 PM

[up]That would be more something like Hollywood Problems, rather than First World Problems, though.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
May 30th 2012 at 10:35:43 PM

It's certainly an interesting phenomenon, but it's not a trope, or anything else connected with media. And the page further confuses the issue by saying "Examples shall be limited to works that notably concern themselves with Third World themes."

Anfauglith Lord of Castamere
Lord of Castamere
May 30th 2012 at 10:58:30 PM

I vote cut. This is not a trope, not interesting, and not even one of those audience reactions.

The second paragraph:

Some problems are universal and basic: death, disease, hunger, thirst, cold, poverty, physical pain. These are part of the human condition and could happen to anybody.

This trope is about problems that don't fit in that class, the problems of the prosperous problems that are significant only if you've already got the basics of food, clothes, and shelter down

The examples:

Examples shall be limited to works that notably concern themselves with Third World themes. If we had to list all the episodes of television shows where the main conflict isn't starvation, we'd be here all day.

What?

Also this talk about "Third World themes" is rather offensive.

edited 30th May '12 11:05:50 PM by Anfauglith

Instead, I have learned a horrible truth of existence...some stories have no meaning.
DoktorvonEurotrash Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
May 31st 2012 at 1:10:11 AM

It's still an improvement from the way the trope used to be, when people listed everything they personally saw as a First World Problem. As it is, the "aversions only" examples list is just odd. I can understand aversions-only lists for tropes like Fantasy Gun Control, but here the works listed don't actually have anything to do with the trope, they're just set in places with bad standards of living.

What I would like would be for the examples list to be about works where the trope is actually invoked: (ALICE: Today the supermarket didn't have passion fruit yoghurt, so I had to go with strawberry. BOB: That's such a first world problem.) That would actually be a trope.

edited 31st May '12 1:10:35 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Feather7603 Devil's Advocate from Yggdrasil
May 31st 2012 at 1:10:18 AM

You know, I really like how the trope describes what those First World Problems are, and then limits the examples to something else that can't even be classified as aversions other than an overlap. I don't see the point in doing that. I think only the Firefly and Friends examples even touch the trope.

As it is, I don't see much to save.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
DoktorvonEurotrash Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
May 31st 2012 at 1:11:33 AM

[up]

You know, I really like how the trope describes what those First World Problems are, and then limits the examples to something else that can't even be classified as aversions other than an overlap.

This. This is what I was trying to say.

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
May 31st 2012 at 11:34:56 AM

Why not limit it to in-universe (like the quote from Friends)

May 31st 2012 at 11:51:33 AM

Good idea, but should we list the various twitter accounts, tumblers, dedicated to 'first world probems'?

Anfauglith Lord of Castamere
Lord of Castamere
May 31st 2012 at 12:02:17 PM

No, I don't think so. If the "trope" gets to stay, it should be limited to in-universe, fictional stuff.

Instead, I have learned a horrible truth of existence...some stories have no meaning.
May 31st 2012 at 12:27:02 PM

If we have enough in-universe examples, sure, let's list them. That's means fictional examples - not stuff like Twitter, which we can just mention in the intro.

May 31st 2012 at 12:30:46 PM

Agreed. I know with a YKTTW I'm working on (the revamped You Must Be This Tall To Enter trope), I just pointed out that it happens in real life, it's Truth in Television, and called for No Real Life Examples Please. The same philosophy should apply here as well.

In-Universe invocations and lampshades only.

Anfauglith Lord of Castamere
Lord of Castamere
May 31st 2012 at 12:44:49 PM

I agree, because real life does not contain tropes. Sometimes it's interesting to list one or two real life things related to the issue in question, but this shouldn't be the norm.

Instead, I have learned a horrible truth of existence...some stories have no meaning.
May 31st 2012 at 1:45:34 PM

I was trying to explain a parody account but am failing.

May 31st 2012 at 7:59:49 PM

I disagree with the statement that real life does not contain tropes, because that's what Life Imitates Art is about (among other things). Rather, in a case like this, the effect in question originates in Real Life and is more tropeworthy when it occurs in fiction, rather than the other way around as is common for numerous other tropes.

Furthermore, even if examples of In-Universe reactions to this are rare, it should be at least given a chance to attract more such examples before we consider a cut.

May 31st 2012 at 8:03:42 PM

Only fiction contains tropes because they are intentionally put there by a creator. Things happen in real life that tropes are based on. But it isn't scripted.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Treblain Not An Avatar
Not An Avatar
May 31st 2012 at 8:22:41 PM

I think we should cut it. It's not a trope, it's a meme. Not in the "internet in-joke" sense, but a stupid repeated idea, one that pretends to be incisive and thoughtful but really just has no purpose but calling out your "first-world problems" by shaming you with the vague image of the "third-world problems" that is equally dismissive of them. When your recyclable grocery bag breaks, or the wiki article you wrote gets eaten by Data Vampires, and your complaint is met with "first world problems," what are you supposed to draw from that experience? Your problems are your problems. It's just a shallow, clueless catchphrase.

Mind you, there is a place for First World Problem in fiction. There has to be, as the First World demands situations that are relevant to them. Even people who are still struggling with more fundamental problems can, if they have time and access, get some enjoyment out of characters dealing with them - sometimes schadenfreude, sometimes for escapism. Clever writers can make something that looks like a First World Problem tie directly into something more fundamental.

That's the obligatory "tropes are not bad" paragraph of the page, except it's nonsense. We shouldn't need to be reassured that it's 'okay' to enjoy fiction that isn't about the suffering in developing nations. The implication, reinforced by the "examples," is that we should note "works that notably concern themselves with Third World themes." That's a laudable goal, but since when is that TV Tropes' job?

We are a wiki about tropes and works (mostly). The wiki is a tool of storytellers and fans and purposes related to storytelling and fandom. The purpose of this page is to judge works on an axis based on a selected quality of the work, and then to gush or complain depending on whether they fit.

If there is something salvageable under the concept, it's in-story references to characters being criticized for being concerned with their "first world problems". If we want to collect those examples, we should do it under a different name, or else it will inevitably be used as "Complaining About Shows That Aren't Sufficiently Attentive To The Concerns Of Relatively Impoverished Regions", since that's the common use of "First World Problems" on the internet.

edited 31st May '12 8:24:09 PM by Treblain

We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
Kexruct nonarySpade from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
Jun 8th 2012 at 3:56:24 PM

Is there any reason to keep this trope, though?

They call themselves seamstresses -Feet Of Clay
DoktorvonEurotrash Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Jun 9th 2012 at 1:14:30 AM

[up]I don't think much of value would be lost if it were cut.

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
RavenWilder Raven Wilder
Raven Wilder
Jun 9th 2012 at 1:39:07 AM

I dunno, I think I kinda see a trope in here; characters complaining about minor nuisances while other characters deal with much, much more serious problems is certainly something I've seen used a few times. Like, I remember an episode of American Dad where some of the Main Characters visited an African refugee camp, and one of them spent their entire time there at an embassy eating a smorgasbord of food. At the end of the episode, while the refugees are trying to carry on with their lives as best they can, that character just complains about how much weight she's put on, even though "I threw away more than I ate".

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
DoktorvonEurotrash Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Jun 9th 2012 at 2:44:04 AM

[up]That's definitely a trope, and I'd suggest repurposing First World Problems for that sort of thing, except:

a) I don't know whether we already have that trope under another name (this happens all the time; I never know if we already have the trope for something)

b) if we do, it might need a name change, since that kind of situation isn't purely about first world vs. third world problems. It might just as well be a contrast between, say, a battered wife and a woman who thinks her husband is abusive just because he won't let her spend their entire household budget on clothes.

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Jun 9th 2012 at 2:46:17 AM

^ Agree on both counts.


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