Manga/Dragon Ball

What is Dragon Ball's tone?

Comedic...

Needing your expand the universe is getting to be a problem especially because they seem to be going for a more perpetual model for Dragonball at the moment: the universe is wider already - the setting and mythos is getting new elements that aren’t getting wiped out, Freeza was reinterpreted as a recurring enemy / archenemy, stuff like Broly function as major character introductions without complete resolution, etc. There’s a lot of elements bouncing around the universe now, not being used.

But the focus remains as compact as ever, as if they’re trying to have their old formula and not have it at the same time. But doing both has its problem: the old formula hinges on elements being thrown against Goku and only Goku, and being wiped out or ceasing to be relevant after, which doesn’t work well with their attempts to maintain these things independently of Goku.

More than ever, Dragonball could use a Gaiden Series.

Needing your expand the universe is getting to be a problem especially because they seem to be going for a more perpetual model for Dragonball at the moment: the universe is wider already - the setting and mythos is getting new elements that aren’t getting wiped out, Freeza was reinterpreted as a recurring enemy / archenemy, stuff like Broly function as major character introductions without complete resolution, etc. There’s a lot of elements bouncing around the universe now, not being used.

But the focus remains as compact as ever, as if they’re trying to have their old formula and not have it at the same time. But doing both has its problem: the old formula hinges on elements being thrown against Goku and only Goku, and being wiped out or ceasing to be relevant after, which doesn’t work well with their attempts to maintain these things independently of Goku.

More than ever, Dragonball could use - bear with me - a character spinoff or two.

How'd you do that?

Uhhhh, thinking....well you could have Goku do something bizarre. Have a dimensional vists, but everyone's tired of relying on Goku, so they just don't tell him and Goku gets distracted by Goten, Chi-Chi, and Gohan. While he's enjoying the non-fighting aspects of his life for once, Whis can train the Earthlings to actually get better while Vegeta, Androids 17 and 18, Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Piccolo, and Young Trunks check out the other universe.

• Vegeta and Young Trunks can visit the Universe 6 Saiyans like he promised Cabba and could give the Saiyan Trio and Trunks some more development while Piccolo checks up on the Universe 6 Namekians.

• 17 and 18 can check up on Universe 3 if there's like a counterpart to Gero there or something.
• Yamcha could go to Universe 9 and actually do some good.
• Tien could go to Universe 10 or something.

Idk, this just popped into my head.

This probably isn’t a new take but I still really want a spin off about the Universe 6 Saiyans. Caulifla and Kale are probably my favorite Super characters and Cabba is adorable so I want more of them! Lol. ^^

A Broly, Cheelai and Lemo series would be cool too

Edited by tms_forever1 on Feb 12th 2020 at 10:05:50 AM

Well you can easily do a gaiden about Hit killin.

Hit's a thousand years old. I wonder if that's due to his species being Long-Lived, or if he wished for eternal youth on the Universe 6 Namekian Dragonballs. The latter would give a new light to his Seen It All personality.

I've actually done a bit of thought about Gaiden series for Dragonball, and I've narrowed it down to a few ideas I think might work.

To note, a lot of this would require them branching out not just to the extent that they have been, but having more people working on more areas of the series. Which isn't actually outside the realm of possibility right now (didn't they recently make a Dragonball-specific studio? The franchise is expanding) so who knows?

Prepare your patience for some looooong-winded blather!

1) Goten and Trunks

If you'd have asked me a decade ago I'd have said Gohan for #1 possibility, but times change: of all the different options, I think this might actually have the best potential for actually carrying a healthy series - and I'm actually very serious about that - and to a degree they've outright stumbled into it.

The biggest is their characterizations. They have the potential for a very good comedic dynamic there: Super isn't great at using characterizations (it typically wasted them), but it could be surprisingly good at making them (owing probably to Toei's admitted skills in slice of life). Trunks especially is set up pretty well as a brash, take charge kind of kid who's way more foolish than he thinks. And while Goten was barely in the series, towards the end (since he mostly showed up as a foil for Goku and Gohan) he shifted towards being sensible in comparison to the others, if not even wise, even if he's outwardly simple sometimes.

So you've got a "leader" type who isn't as smart as he thinks he is, and a "follower" type who's isn't as simple as he seems. That's a classic comedic dynamic that often works (you could even argue Goku and Bulma originally had a twist on that) For a good modern Western comparison, that's basically the dynamic that Super Sons ran on (it's literally the first thing I think of when I envision how a Goten / Trunks series would work), and that series was fantastic.

Add that to how with they actually already have the makings of a supporting cast. You have Marron, of course (and while she's barely, barely in the series, again they've established a pretty fun characterization for her as a kid who loves action), but the Pilaf Gang are basically Satellite Characters to Trunks already. It's a nice small stable of characters, all with very different personalities.

And outside of characterizations, they have much better potential for their own niche than most of the characters so far: the boys have a close relationship with the rest of the universe, obviously, but a very different perspective. They see and want different things from the others. And while they're Super Saiyans, they're weaker than every other living Saiyan in the series: they can be threatened by things that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan wouldn't be, which means that whole problem of Goku being too powerful to really explore the universe that's being built around the character doesn't exist for them (yet). If you drop them into Universe 9, you'd actually get something out of them being trapped in a Wretched Hive.

They make good adventure-genre characters, so punt Goten and Trunks into an interdimensional portal or something and have them on a misadventure through the multiverse. Fun, cool, loads of different locales and situations, with a bit more light humor than the main series but not without its tense/dark moments. It writes itself.

This relies heavily on the Toriyama / Toei / Toyotaro being able to write it well, though. Toriyama is very clear about not liking to write for characters that aren't Goku, Toei as noted can be good as making characters but terrible at using them (and the Goten / Trunks plots in Super have been pretty subpar as a result), and who knows what Toyotaro feels about this sort of thing.

2) Gohan / Great Saiyaman

This being explicitly outside Toriyama's comfort zone, this would absolutely have to be done by someone else.

Again, this is something I would've said was more workable ten years ago. Gohan had a setting that was all his then. He doesn't now. He had strong sense of why he does the things he does and more of a character interest in having adventures - even if not the grand adventures of his father. He doesn't now. It's not really clear what Gohan will do in any given situation any more.

Still, I could see them making a very good tokusatsu parody/action series out of Gohan and his life. I don't know about it working as a perpetual series the way I see Goten and Trunks working - simply because I don't know how well Gohan himself can carry a full run. That said, the big difference Gohan brings is that he has a far more personal engagement with the universe than any of the characters. Far more than anyone else in the series, Gohan cares. He has an attachment to the Earth and the people around him that most of the other characters don't express, which would work well for a terrestrial series that avoids the more cosmic arcs the main series has been falling into recently.

Earth itself has been out of focus some in the franchise recently, so him being an Earth-centric character could work. Throw in a bunch of tokusatsu / magical girl / sentai villain parodies and I think you've got yourself a series.

It's also a context some of the other characters could have a bit more legroom in, where they have less so in the main title. Piccolo, of course, is obvious - he has a lot less to do with the main stories and has become more of a Gohan-centric character ages now anyway. In a crime fighting parody series, Cop Krillin would make a pretty good supporting character (I liked his "weary but whatever" attitude to seeing Saiyaman again in Super), so put him and #18 in. Bulma's had a lot of use in the series recently and I love it, and Gohan has a bit more affinity for the sci-fi weirdness she brings to the table (unlike the others who mostly just go "uh, sure," so you could get a lot out of that as well). And Videl, god. Part of the reason she's gotten such a raw deal in Super is because she's a satellite to someone who is, already, on a roller coaster between being a minor character and being a supporter. In a series where Gohan is front and center, hopefully she can get some of her mojo back. Etcetera and so on.

All in all, I think it could work. Though again, my faith in it isn't as strong.

3) Universe 6

To be honest, I had no #3 when I started writing this. None of the other main characters have that "the iron is hot" quality that the previous two have in my opinion, or would simply work better in either the main series or one of those contexts. The big thing here wasn't just "which characters would be cool," but "who could actually do something that would carry an entire series." Who's got a suitable engine? I don't see characters like Beerus, #17, Freeza or even the mighty Yamcha doing the latter or having one, though I've been wrong before.

But off the beaten path, the fact that there's been so much strong but woefully underused worldbuilding in the universe now could give the potential for a few good stories away from the main cast.

I don't see this as a full series - maybe an OVA - but the best bet for that is probably Cabba, Caulifla, Kale and the rest of Universe 6. From the way we see it, Universe 6 is a character with staunchly moral do-gooders in a world that's sliding pretty precariously over being a very nasty place, which is a great setting for some action. One of its primary defenders was just disgraced/explosed as a villain (depending on if you read the manga or watch the anime), which makes a good recent inciting event. There's traditional Saiyans alongside Cyberpunk, alternate versions of Nameks, and who knows what else that's similar but vitally skewed from the main universe. If DC can make a kick-ass Earth 2 line of comics, I could see a Bizarro Universe series from Dragonball work with twists in Cabba's universe.

Plus it would give us the rare opportunity to see the main universe and it's characters from a completely different perspective. From Vegeta's perspective, Cabba is an unfulfilled Saiyan ripe to be trained into a proud warrior. Who is Vegeta from Cabba's perspective - Cabba being someone who only knows him through those interactions? It'd be a neat idea, as he makes a very good Everyman sort of protag, and him matching issues with the bombastic and impulsive Caulifla and living powderkeg Kale would make a decent dynamic. Add in an openly spiteful God Of Destruction, a close ally whose life as a ruthless hitman runs at odds with Cabba's morality, and a peacekeeping organization to get back in order, and I'd at least give it a shot.

But... it's also very gimmicky, which is why I'm not sure about it lasting as a full series, and maybe just being an OVA.

- And end loooong winded blather -

That's what I've got. I'm actually kind of proud of all that (onto my blog it goes!). But I mean it when I say the iron is hot. Dragonball has a lot they could do right now, and a lot of potential to bolster the strength of the series overall.

A stronger series means more potential, and so on and so forth, so that next time we get something that isn't so great, it's not the end of the world. It's just one drop in a bucket that could dissipate it with other content. And Toriyama's great as establishing loads of characters you have to love, so maybe they can do a little more for him in return.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 12th 2020 at 9:23:13 AM

Toriyama's not liking to write another character in the lead role...

In my mind, the main purpose of shifting the focus away from Goku and Vegeta is to dial back the Serial Escalation. If you just want a Saiyan uber-god throwing down with multi-dimensional eldritch horrors or whatever, there's no reason to stop using Goku and Vegeta. At this point, that's their thing.

With that in mind, I don't think Gohan or Goten and Trunks are viable new protagonists. Gohan's already "The Strongest in the Universe but Still Doesn't Do Crap", and SSJ3 Gotenks is up there too. These characters are already so powerful that it defeats the purpose of moving away from Goku and Vegeta in the first place.

I think if one were to start up a spinoff series, they'd need to feature it around a character who hasn't had a chance to catch up to the Serial Escalation and isn't already a planet-busting god-tier super-being. Maybe Pan or Bra. Or, if one also wants to move away from Saiyans and give someone else their time in the sun, Maron. Or just create a brand new character entirely.

Take this character and let them go on a journey to become a character that can throw down with the likes of Piccolo and Gohan.

EDIT: And personally, I vote Maron. Of all the options, I'd love to see a story about Krillin's daughter becoming the next-gen Goku.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 13th 2020 at 8:47:28 AM

The thing about Dragon Ball characters is that they're all designed to do one thing: fight.

And since everyone is weaker than our top guys, there's no reason to do that

Alright time for another tournament arc.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Later, gators.

Edited by Soble on Feb 13th 2020 at 10:24:30 AM

You posted that to say what exactly?

To say...Blooma, Oolong, and Puar don't fight...I guess.

Though they don't really do anything once the fighting becomes more prevalent anyway.

And every character created after them is for the fighting.

Edited by randomness4 on Feb 13th 2020 at 10:53:04 AM

@Tobias: Tbh, the idea I had for the optimal next gen series is a Power Trio series for Goten / Trunks / Marron. As I mentioned before, I really like the tiny blips or characterization she got in Super, and I think of tempered correctly the three of them could make a great dynamic.

As noted, that’s actually the reason a spinoff series is looking kind of essential right now: Goku and Vegeta are escalating so fast that it’s becoming more difficult to continue the fighting with them than it used to be. Super struggled with that for a while.

They’re leaving the world building behind faster than the authors can create it, and so it’s harder to find characters for them to reasonably fight. A focus story with the weaker characters thus allows them to use that world building to provide more avenues for fighting by allowing characters like Gohan or Goten or Pan have adventures like the series’ prior days, which Goku and Vegeta are now too godlike to adequately partake in.

No matter what, it’s looking like Dragonball is gearing up to be a perpetual series/franchise. It’s not stopping any time soon. Which means the escalation either needs to stop, or they need to start actually accounting for it. They can only conveniently de power Vegeta and Goku so many times. Something has to release or redirect the pressure.

So... yeah. My take is, they regenre the main series as more of a cosmic series (something they’ve been playing at for ages now anyway), and continue the classic Z-style writing with other characters instead. Right now, they’re just trying to have their cake and keep it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 13th 2020 at 10:58:40 AM

I mean, even in the Saiyan arc and beyond, Goku was being pushed out of the story for multiple reasons (to save him for the final boss, to creat tension because he's not there to beat up the bad guys who are always stronger than every other character, and a lot of other things).

Going full spin-off instead makes sense. Goku is too strong for the regular show anymore. Hell maybe he was always too strong for it. So give him his own playground and let other characters have their own.

Plus, scaling back the conflicts a bit would solve the escalation problem...maybe. The Z Warriors have killed nearly every opponent on Earth.

I think Soble's point was about how the characters provided ways to be valued beyond their fighting skill, which I have to agree with.

Well, Bulma has her scientific expertise.

Puar and Oolong have their shapeshifting, which was never really explored.

Chiaotzu's telekinesis probably has a lot of unexplored applications if Toriyama actually cared about him.

....Maybe Yamcha saved some cool stuff from his Desert Bandit days?

Yeah that last one is reaching.

The same can be said about most characters who aren't martial artists like Goku and the others.

Yeah that was before DB transitioned into a hard battle series.

Puar or Oolong could only contribute in highly specific situations now that quite frankly wouldn’t provide much to the narrative.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 13th 2020 at 8:17:02 AM

And even then, more Puar than Oolong, since the former was the better shape shifter (due to no time limit).

Outside of fighting Yamucha apparently only provided exposition...

Outside of fighting Puar and Oolong's shape-shifting never served any "narrative" purpose...

Puar's only other useful shape-shifting moment was in Baba's little tournament...

Blooma's science tech is the most useful and after the RRA stuff it doesn't come back "in full" until Namek.