Manga/Dragon Ball

Yeah it's called a forum

I do like cowboys.

I prefer this to Pushover assuming no one disagrees with him.

This the only part of the fight that could be even slightly interpreted as "getting ragdolled". The rest of it is Vegeta blocking Cabba's attacks with a bit of difficulty, which makes sense considering they're about equal in strength, as Vegeta stated earlier. Vegeta is being attacked by a freshly minted Super Saiyan running off the adrenaline high of the initial transformation, it makes sense for Vegeta to be pushed back a bit, even if Vegeta is still the stronger one overall.

And no, just because Cabba's fists are drawn detached from his body in that barrage of punches does not make it poorly animated. It is very well animated, as far as those kinds of attacks go.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 15th 2018 at 6:49:18 AM

I disagree with 'only a bit of difficulty'. As I've been saying, he's sweating, gritting his teeth, legs are shaking, he's groaning, and getting pushed back the entire time. That's not equal at all.

The first punch shows the shock travel throw Vegeta's body as he gasps, and he slides back pretty far just from that.

When he pushes back Cabba's arms, he doubles over while groaning, then goes for the kick which Cabba immediately rebounds from and kicks him twice, launching him into the air. Vegeta spits out and cries out in pain, then completely loses sight of Cabba who appears behind him and knocks him straight into the ground. Even as he's covering himself from Cabba's blasts, he's still crying out.

This isn't 'pushed back a little', one punch pushes him several meters back.

None of this points between a fight between equals. He'd hit Cabba once, and immediately got retaliated against.

Edited by Saiga on Nov 15th 2018 at 11:55:36 PM

Yeah, like I said, Cabba is fighting with an adrenaline rush. He's attacking wildly and aggressively, which is hard to fight against with a cool head, and he's ignoring the pain of any counter attacks. There are TONS of moments between equal fighters when one gains the upper hand for a short period of time because of a technique or a sudden burst of aggression, that's not unusual.

The punch that pushed Vegeta back also had a lot of momentum and a ki blast built into it. That's what that little explosion was.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 15th 2018 at 7:03:17 AM

When the entire fight is Vegeta getting knocked around, that really doesn't cut it to portray the two as being equal. And Dragon Ball isn't normally one to use 'adrenaline rush = massive advantage'. That's a weak excuse.

Cabba doesn't have a massive advantage though, just a slight one. If Cabba had a massive advantage, Vegeta wouldn't have even been able to block his attacks. Aside from the sweeping kick, Vegeta also wasn't fighting back that whole time, until he grinned and destroyed all of Cabba's ki blasts with a ki wave of his own.

I think it was pretty obvious that Vegeta was, in that moment, proud of Cabba for how quickly he got Super Saiyan, caught off-guard a little by how aggressive Cabba was being, and not really fighting back much to allow Cabba to enjoy the rush of his first time. All of that was conveyed to me with character animation.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 15th 2018 at 7:36:56 AM

Again, I disagree on slight for all the reasons I've outlined. It's not slight when he knocks Vegeta back several meters, has him crying out in pain the entire time, and constantly has the upper hand. You're really hyping up Vegeta blocking his attacks, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when blocking his attacks involved sweating, grunting and gritting his teeth the entire time.

Vegeta tried fighting back when he kicked Cabba - Cabba immediately retaliated and kicked him twice, sending him flying. The rest of the time he was being pushed back while trying to block, or getting taken by surprise.

And that may be the interpretation you took, but that just doesn't gel with what is shown. Vegeta doesn't show any pride until after the fight, he acted like he was being overwhelmed despite his best efforts. He wasn't conspicuously not retaliating, because we see him try to do that in the fight. The other times he wasn't fighting back, he was clearly on the defensive or being knocked around. It is much more clearly portrayed that he is getting his ass kicked.

Which brings us back with one of Super's core problems in writing fights - the way the characters behave does not gel with the narrative. For the sake of drama/tension/"moments", the characters act like they're being overwhelmed and are helpless, even if they would otherwise be able to fight evenly or are implicitly/explicitly holding back.

Yea but you guys never reach a conclusion, not even to agree to disagree.

Aren't there a few moments sorta like that in the original like when Freeza fights without his hands and Goku swings him around by the tail and bites him?

Even with the overwhelming power difference there, Goku still can get Freeza on the ropes.

Didnt really actually hurt him until the Kaioken x20 (and, I think the tail bite hurt maybe?) but he definitely knocked Freeza around a bit. Without actually damaging him.

EDIT: It makes the most sense with Freeza, who couldn't sense energy and is strong without actually being especially skilled.

Freeza on Namek might not have any idea where his enemy is, or how strong they actually are or how much strength he needs to block or how fast he needs to be to dodge.

Also, yeah, Goku outright says "You're too confident, you leave yourself wide open."

Freeza wasn't even at 50% at that point, and Goku didn't know that.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 15th 2018 at 10:42:22 AM

See, with Freeza you can visibly see that he's unharmed by Goku's attacks, with the exception of the bite which really took him off-guard. He doesn't act like he's the one at a disadvantage

Biting people really is Goku's best technique.

He does eat a lot.

Anyway, righr after the bite there's a panel of Freeza grumbling and grabbing his tail, than Goku kicks Freeza in the head and punches him in the. Chest or Jaw? And then there'a a panel of Freeza looking irritated, wincing with one eye and I think Goku knocked some spit out of him? And then Freeza counters by punching Goku, breaking the "no hands" rule, and goes back to being unflappable and then reveals he's not even using 50% yet.

But that whole sequence with the bite Goku does seem to get Freeza on the edge for, a hot second maybe.

Freeza proved not to be entirely unflappable. The man was flapped.

Speaking of which, why are the Saiyans named after vegetables when they're very enthusiastic meat eaters? :S

Goku's strongest muscle is naturally his mouth, Freeza wasn't expecting that

It is the very definition of irony.

To remind them that a high protein diet necessitates a rich source of fiber?

Circle of life. Haven't you seen The Lion King? Plants feed animals, and then the animals' bodies feed the plants.

Edited by Larkmarn on Nov 15th 2018 at 11:09:57 AM

X5

You want them to eat their own kind?

In regards to unnoun’s points about Freeza, we know he was using a very low percentage of his power (I cannot recall exactly how much). Both he and Goku were just feeling each other out to tell how strong the other was.

So even though he was much more powerful, it’s likely he was still at a level where the much weaker Goku could hurt him since it is possible to lower power to the point where you can be hurt by someone with a lower power level than your own.

Vegeta showed us as much.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 15th 2018 at 9:10:44 AM

The Kaioken x20 does hurt Freeza as well.

It pisses Freeza off. He yells "That hurt. It hurt!" Because a Saiyan Monkey had the audacity to cause him pain.

Just imagine if Goku had used the Kaioken x20 for the bite when Freeza wasn't using 50%.

Heh yeah.

If Goku had known how strong Freeza really was, he could have used Kaiouken X20 during the early portion of the fight and potential taken Freeza out well before the latter could power up, providing he caught Freeza off guard.

Consistently original.

And relevant.