Clean up and Rename (alt names crowner 4/3): Parody Failure

Good point. Those are quite distinct. (The hypothetical "intentionally copying a joke" applies to neither.) Let's split them.

But will Parody Parody be exclusively ''oblivious' parody parodies, such as the examples on the page now?

Er... that's actually what I meant with Repeating Instead Of Spoofing in my list. Or is there some finer distinction between these?

I doubt that we can possibly determine whether a parody is "oblivious" (i.e. the parody's author didn't know that the work he parodied is a spoof) or "intentional" (i.e. the author thought "Yeah, I know that it's a spoof, but I'm gonna still parody it"), unless there is some specific Word of God on that matter.

I'd suggest just listing all works that parody parodies, intentionally or not :)

You gave the example of Wolverine giving Cyclops the finger. The complaint against that, in the current page anyway, is that though it would have been a fine twist on X Men had the spoof writers thought of it, they seemed unaware that X Men itself had cracked the joke.

If, on the other hand, the spoof writers genuinely repeated the joke as a simple shout-out, then though they would be technically "repeating instead of spoofing," they wouldn't even have been trying to spoof with that particular joke. If would be like calling a repeated joke in The Hangover 2 "repeating instead of spoofing" - the joke wasn't' trying to spoof anything.

I think the difference can be quite clear. If the parody writer knows the original is a parody, they must parody the parody-ness. For instance, Scary Movie parodied horror movies for their cliches, but they in particular parodied Scream for pointing out the cliches and trying to parody them. We also have a number of online parodies of the Friedberg and Seltzer movies ("Reference Movie") that spoof them for their ineptness at parodying. Those would not get a place on the current Parody Failure/Redundant Parody page.

On the other hand, we have cases like the Batman example, or an alleged parody of MIB, or comedians "doing Dame Edna" where the spoof does not rely on the original's parody nature (and is actually undermined by it).

Ah, I see it now. Hm, maybe then "intentional repeating instead of spoofing" isn't tropeable at all?

Hmm, yes, I see what you mean, I agree.

Btw, I even think that maybe this trope ("unknowingly parodying a parody") could be broadened to encompass not just parodies, but also irony and similar jokes. E.g., Warhammer40k isn't a parody per se, but it's very ironic in its treatment of many common sci-fi tropes. Thus, many attempts to parody W H40k that I've seen, fall flat since they treat it as if it were completely and utterly serious.

I don't think it is. It seems like Shout-Out but more specific. Unless the writer banks on the reader not recognizing the joke, in which case it's more like plagiarism.

That's right. In fact, that applies to several of the current examples - many works are ironic and tongue-in-cheek without being outright parody or self-parody.

edited 9th Jan '12 1:20:58 PM by Routerie

When I brought up the issue of parodies that deliberately reuse the subject's quotes, I was thinking of parodies like Tina Fey's Sarah Palin impression, or Peter Paltridge's fake interview with Far East Movement (both of which have mentions on the article).

That would be a separate trope, about how something was just so silly, a parody can't top it. Abridged Series often have "Actual Dialog" as a form of this.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Hmm... so what do we have?

1. Parody with intentional quoting of the original:

• A type of Shout-Out. (Btw, there's also a type of parodies when they just reference, e.g., characters from the original work without actually spoofing them (e.g., Borat in Epic Movie, etc.). Is this covered by Shout-Out?)
• A specific type of parody when the original quote is so silly it doesn't even need to be changed. How Did We Miss It? Good catch!

2. Parody with unintentional quoting of the original: is this tropeable?

3. Knowingly parodying a parody or an ironic work, specifically spoofing its parody/ironic qualities: is this tropeable?

4. Unknowingly parodying a parody or an ironic work, as if it was serious

Is there more? :)

We can close the crowner, since we implemented its solution a month ago. But we've since talked about the different tropes that the page covers. I've now YKTTW'd:

• Parody Plagiarism
• Spoofing Spoofiness
• Spoofed The Ironic Film Seriously
• Parody Shout-Out

edited 17th Feb '12 6:19:17 PM by Routerie

I would suggest keeping the name Parody Failure as a supertrope — exampleless, if need be — for the tropes among which its examples are to be divided.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

Sure. Shallow Parody and Narrow Parody would also be subtropes.

Updated links:

• Parody Plagiarism
• Spoofing Spoofiness
• Spoofed The Ironic Film Seriously
• Parody Shout-Out

None of those seem to be the How Did We Miss This? Actual Dialogue variant.

edited 17th Feb '12 7:07:23 PM by Noaqiyeum

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Calling the crowner, clean up and rename. Locking the crowner.

Once all those tropes get launched, is Parody Failure going to be the supertrope to them?

I think I struck on something that may have been missing; not all Parody Failures are failures because they missed the actual complexity or tone of the work involved; often they are speaking to an audience who is completely ignorant of the work in question, and they're actually parodying a different (usually much older) form of the work that their audience is familiar with, or possibly parodying what "everyone assumes" the work is about.

As an example, this was brought up under the Spoofed the Ironic Film Seriously YTTKW:

While some of the writers were probably familiar enough with the Death of Superman to actually make a skit about it, they were not attempting to follow the comics accurately, because most people don't follow the comics; it was a skit about superheroes, and if you're going to make a joke to a non-comic audience about superheroes, you mainly reference the old TV Show Hulk, not the actual Hulk that appears in the comics.*

And also Hulk is Marvel, not DC, so would it really matter if he was Marvel-accurate?

So you have a Parody Gap. In order to not alienate what most people think about an unfamiliar work, they risk alienating people who are familiar with the work. People familiar with the TV show Hulk but not the comics laugh when they see the Hulk suddenly break into an eloquent speech. Some comics fans are slightly confused; they (probably) know what the joke is supposed to be but it's not really funny because the Hulk isn't completely brainless.

edited 22nd Feb '12 10:26:55 AM by RickGriffin

Split Parody Base?

Another factor is at work with many of the SNL examples I alluded to in the main. Of course satire shouldn't be slapsticky and obvious, but some parodies fail to transcend their target simply because the writers and actors are trying too hard to be subtle and dry. Often, the bone-dryness ends up crossing the line thrice, as it were, giving no opening for any meta-reflection on the target.

Add this in to others mentioned above, and even despite the danger of Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, there are probably enough legitimate causes and examples to justify the main article—even if in pruned and cautiously maintained form.

I've added one more YKTTW to the list - Spoofed With Their Own Words.

I'd suggest changing the name to Copycat Parody. This is more direct than the current one, which sounds more like a page for Complaining About Shows You Dont Like.

Catch me where? See my profile!

That may be a good name for Parody Plagiarism (which isn't really plagiarism).

Crowner pasted to thread.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Copycat Parody doesn't really capture the element that being identical to the source makes it not work as parody.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

Which trope is being nominated for the rename?

Parody Failure, wherein someone attempting to parody a work unknowingly duplicates it.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus