Frozen (Disney film)

I could see that working better for Elsa at least. It wouldn't inherently solve any of the issues with Anna's arc or Kristoff being pointless.

The very end of 'Show Yourself, first where Elsa sings 'I am found' and then Iduna says 'you are the one you've been waiting for' are incredibly powerful moments to me.

I do think a major problem with the movie is a weak instigation for the journey. Simply put, why now? If the dam has been causing problems for 30+ years, what angered the spirits enough to suddenly start calling out to Elsa and harass Arendelle? The prologue makes it obvious that is where the story is going, but there is a lack of danger or race against time to make this all right.

The small use of the rock trolls again is a missed opportunity, as this is their area of expertise and they could have comes to Elsa first saying something isn't right with the magical leylines ever since the first movie and it's been building to a head since.

One thing I realised thinking back to the movie was that the world in Frozen 2 seems emptier than in the first movie. Frozen already had a reduced number of characters, but they were still fleshed out - there was Oaken's One-Scene Wonder, Weselton's greed and bigotry, we got a few lines from the Arendellians citizens, and even the ambassadors had some characterisations.

In Frozen 2, almost every character apart from the sisters and Olaf is reduced to a Flat Character. Mattias gets the most development, but Honeymaren is mainly Ms. Exposition (apart from a new shipping target), Yelena and Ryder only have a few lines, and the Arendellians are reduced to a silent, frightened crowd for most of the movie.

I'd never have thought I would say this, given that I have always held that I wanted Frozen 2 to be focused on the sisters above all else, but sometimes I feel that this movie focused too much on them. The end result makes their adventures seem somewhat surreal. Maybe that's what the writers were aiming for, but now I wonder if part of the appeal of Frozen 1 was how grounded into reality (for a given value of reality) it seemed.

Regarding the spirits, um, I kind of wonder if the reason they were awake is because of those potions/spells that pop up in the book Forest of Shadows, which I consider canon. It would at least tie into that even though it would still be nonsensical. The big issue with that theory is that not everyone read Forest of Shadows and not every person who saw or is still gonna see the movie even know about its existence.

A feature length movie should be able to stand on its own in terms of storytelling. It should have been able to answer some basic questions about the plot. The rest is just complimentary, it’s just for us fans or people curious enough to search for more answers.

(Related: if they do a Frozen 3, is the villain a human, or someone with more magic? Because even Forest of Shadows had a magic no one heard about come out of nowhere and try to take them down.)

And that's also true that there's a lack of interesting side characters in Frozen II. Because if you look at the comics and the books they have good build up around their side characters. And why NOT use the rock trolls? They could have done one "still not married yet joke" and then given Kristoff something else to do.

Of course there may be a reason why the world feels emptier and that's because the movie isn't more focused on other characters specifically, but more focused on Elsa. It’s Elsa’s journey since the beginning with her hearing the voice, so the rest of the characters just go along with it. In fact, that’s why I can’t understand why people say they find Anna's arc to be "beautiful" when Anna had little to no development at all.

That could also admittedly be a result of split focus on the 4 main characters that were given their own motivations for the journey (for better or worse), compared to the first movie where the focus was primarily on Anna first, then Elsa second. Frozen II wasted approximately 20 minutes on Olaf’s and Kristoff’s antics that added nothing to the plot and could have been cut to give the movie more consistency. Better yet, their motivations (mainly Kristoff’s) could have been rearranged in order to work with Elsa’s journey if that was gonna be the focus all along.

But what is mostly disappointing is how Anna gets overshadowed in all of this. All of her focus was on Elsa during the whole movie, and while that's a very good choice of character motivation (since Anna’s love for Elsa is pretty well established), it became a point of contend when Elsa’s focus isn’t reciprocating back on her. They missed the opportunity to have these characters play off each other for character growth. Instead, we got Elsa following blindly a distant voice and playing off that voice for her big revelation/character “growth”. So, in a way, the sisters' relationship was underdeveloped too, despite all the screentime they had. Not enough time was placed on them to achieve a satisfying resolution of their character arcs. The writers wanted Elsa’s journey, but they pushed Anna aside, which is why I don't feel like enough was given to us to suggest that Anna would be a good queen and that Anna "stole" Elsa's job as it were.

Edited by dmcreif on Dec 16th 2019 at 12:36:04 PM

I just saw the movie and though I liked it, there's something about it that really rubbed me the wrong way. The Sámi equivalents in the movie are pretty blatantly being treated as stand-ins for Native Americans, and the entire relationship between them seems emblematic of the US' history with its indigenous people. I really don't like that the film appears to be reflecting on the US's poor treatment of Native Americans by using Sámi and Scandinavians as thinly veiled stand-ins. Scandinavia's record with the Sámi is undoubtedly spotty at best, but there has never been any kind of genocide or ethnic purge comparable to what was done to the indiginous peoples of America. An American movie shouldn't reflect on the US's sins by symbolically transferring them onto a people that took no part in them.

Actually the dam that started the plot is based on a real thing Norway did to the Sami.

Supposedly it's a reference to the controversy over the Alta river dam. I haven't seen the filmmakers directly refer to it yet, (they made one mention of "water rights" in an LA Times interview) but I wouldn't be surprised if that was an inspiration for the plot.

Interestingly, it actually wouldn't be the first time that Disney media has referenced it. (Article is in Norwegian.)

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 16th 2019 at 2:59:34 AM

Where things get problematic is the idea of restitution being to wipe out Arendelle.

I think it's interesting that the more one watches this movie, the more one sees issues with it.

Yeah, nah, the Northuldra plotline isn't meant to deal with Native American history specifically. Basically, some Sámi figures called out the first movie for appropriating elements of the culture and using them out of context (e.g. Kristoff's clothing and the joiking), so this time around the writers teamed up with a council of Sámi artists and experts to get the story right (plus some tourism cooperations and an internship program for Sámi students at WDAS on the material side).

(Apologies, but I get really annoyed whenever people think that everything is about American race relation dynamics. Colonialism exists in many different forms around the world, and it doesn't always have to do with differences in skin colour.)

The fate of Arendelle is a wedge issue for the movie's political readings. I've seen arguments that it doesn't go far enough, but I don't think portraying restitution as a zero-sum affair would've sent the correct message, honestly. It's one thing to tell kids "you must do the right thing even if it means sacrificing everything" and another to tell them "sacrificing everything is the only way you can do the right thing".

The way the movie does it is a bit of a compromise, but it's a compromise I quite like: Anna has to break the dam without any promise of a reward. She doesn't know that there's any hope of saving Arendelle, or that this act of true love could thaw her frozen sister, and she stayed that way for a few moments even as the mist parted and the sky cleared. But that decision also opens up a way for Elsa to save the city. Saying sorry, making right past wrongs and having moral courage won't necessarily set things right for everyone, but it's the only way we could hope to do that. If the movie showed ordinary citizens getting their homes washed away for a past sin they had no direct part in, then we're getting into the territory of collective guilt, generational trauma and Cycle of Revenge - and there are things that the movie could've done neatly with an extra 30 minutes of screen time, but these ain't it.

The whole colonization plot seems to exist for the purpose of highlighting social awareness, but there is no moral lesson to complete the parable. The Northuldra elder protests that their homelands are damaged by the dam...but the forest remains vast and beautiful. It seems that the only damage done is by the spirits, who have obscured the sky, rather than the Arendellers directly. Runeard isn't a subversion in any way. Bad European rulers trampling over indigenous peoples is played completely straight as a trope, and there is nothing to make him memorable as a villain. The Arendellers are none the wiser for it. To them, it was a temporary evacuation culminating in yet another cryotechnic extravaganza from their Queen, who then hands the crown to her sister and rides off into the sunset.

Well, apparently none of the present Arendellians were aware of the Northuldra situations, and it seems only Runeard was really bent on conquering them - we even see one of his advisers argue against it in an ice memory. It's not as if there had been a long history of war between the two people, although it would be interesting to know what the public knowledge was about the event that happened 35 years ago and how they felt about it.

I agree with eagleoftheninth that at least the handling of the resolution is not badly done and actually quite similar to the first film: Anna performs an act of self-sacrifice (this time not her life but her kingdom) and is rewarded without having any idea that this would happen.

By the way, this made me realise that in both films, Anna is the one who actually gets things done, while Elsa is the one who runs away. So saying Anna is not Queen material is a bit of a disservice to her really.

Don't get me wrong, Anna has the right heart to do it, she cares a lot about Arendelle, and she's always wanting to please people. Although, as I say that, I also realize that Anna's need to always please people is going to be problematic for her because she's going to quickly find that being the head of state for Arendelle means she'll be the one who has to make difficult decisions where she can't please everyone.

I’m not saying Anna's naive, but as someone thrust into a position of responsibility, she's going to have to learn that she won't be able to please everyone, and she'll have to face the consequences of decisions that negatively affect people, which will not be easy for someone who cares so much. (Yes, she decided to destroy the dam and this would have caused her troubles among the Arendelle populace who conveniently had been evacuated beforehand. But thanks to Elsa, Anna never faced the consequences). Dealing with the fallout of decisions where she’ll have to let some people down could be more difficult for Anna to handle than Elsa would in such situations.

That's because of the sisters' different personalities. Anna is more outgoing than Elsa, and this will certainly be helpful in social engagements. But at the same time, just because Anna's a social butterfly and Elsa is a shy introvert doesn't necessarily equate to Anna being more fit for the role of queen. Anna is more impulsive; she doesn’t have the patience Elsa has (she even says it in Frozen 2), and can be extremely aggressive, verbally assaulting a man because she lost her temper in Forest of Shadows. She just says and does whatever she's feeling at the moment, and that's not really a trait that a good leader should be exhibiting when it comes to delicate matters of diplomacy or statecraft. (In the first movie, the argument that led to Elsa losing control of her powers at the coronation, which wouldn't have happened if Anna hadn't lost her temper as Elsa had insisted on taking her aside to talk in private (and presumably reveal her powers to her); plus, there was the incident where she lobbed the snowball at Marshmallow because she was mad.)

The work schedule is also going to be a big problem for Anna's daily routine. The books, plus the first movie and Frozen Fever make clear that Anna likes to sleep very late, and prefers to spend her time outside. That's going to be a problem because the tie-in books make clear that as Queen, Elsa has a very demanding schedule. Forest of Shadows makes clear she works 16 hour days, from sunrise to well after sunset, only taking breaks for meals. She barely has any time to spend with Anna, only able to allocate a small amount of time on Friday nights for charades and other games at Anna's request. She does her own paperwork cause no one else could. Kai and Gerda try to assist her, but they can’t help her do her job. They mostly remind her of her appointments and take orders. And when Elsa sticks her nose out of the castle, she gets assaulted by citizens asking for her attention. There's a scene where Kristoff has to distract the villagers so Elsa can run and spend some alone time with Anna.

Regardless of whether one regards the tie-in books as canon, Elsa's schedule is packed. It's so packed that Elsa, who was groomed for the job and studied from an early age, has a hard time as it is not falling behind on her schedule. Keep in mind, Elsa is also single, and has no interest in either finding a suitor to marry or in having kids, and finds Anna to be more than enough. If that's Elsa's schedule, Anna's schedule is going to be that, and maybe even busier, especially once she's married to Kristoff and has kids. She'll have to balance out her family life with the needs of her busy work schedule.

Then there's the education aspect, which will make Anna's first year or so as queen rather stressful for her. Because Elsa actually took her education a lot more seriously than Anna. References in the Frozen books make clear that when they were kids, Elsa spent most of her time inside studying, while Anna was outside playing. In one of them, they went with their parents to vacation in a lakeside cabin. Elsa spent her time in the cabin studying, while Anna played outside.

TLDR; Anna certainly has the heart and enthusiasm to be Queen, but that's not enough for me to feel she's worthy of the job. If she's going to be a good queen, she better be ready to sacrifice a LOT for the job. She'll need to kiss goodbye to any notion of having free time, as well as accept that she'll have little to no time to just hang out with her boyfriend or her family. Basically, the only thing that works in Anna's favor is only that she is more socially exuberant than Elsa, which is not really much of a strength.

Personally, what I think should've happened at the end of Frozen II is that Elsa should've remained as Queen of Arendelle. Anna would stay as Princess Anna of Arendelle, and be given some sort of new role in running Arendelle like being a knight or a dignitary. A swashbuckling knight? That's what Once Upon a Time did with Anna in the Frozen arc of Season 4, and I think that's what Frozen II should've settled on making her. With her arc being retooled accordingly within the movie.

Edited by dmcreif on Dec 17th 2019 at 8:15:00 AM

What if in Frozen 3, Elsa betrays the spirits like how Batman betrayed the League of Shadows?

Since when is Elsa Batman.

Her parents died while she was young (and she could eventually witness their deaths). But I'd see more Elsa as Superman (OK, an X-Men Superman).

Now I'm just imagining Elsa as Batman and the Arendelle police department guesses that she's Elsa right away because no one else can freeze people.

Surely she'd be Ms. Freeze? :P

With Anna as Nora Freeze and Hans as Batman?

What if in Frozen 3, King Runeard is the final villain, just like how Palpatine is the villain in Rise of Skywalker? Maybe Runeard pretended to dislike magic just like how Palpatine pretended to dislike the Sith, and Runeard really is an evil sorcerer with a evil laugh. That would explain why there are books about magic in the Arendelle castle library.

Only if he's defeated in the end by Anna with a half brick in a sock while Elsa distracts him.

At least one review for Rise of Skywalker compared it to Frozen II.

"The film continually teases status-quo altering events and then immediately walks them back, offers generic action where even the seemingly emotional showdowns are interrupted by digressions and past-tense exposition, and gives Daisy Ridley essentially no real arc of her own. The screenplay never forces her to make any hard choices or live with the consequences of her mistakes. The plot is shockingly similar to Frozen II, but even that film, as random as its narrative seemed, prioritized character and emotional honesty over plot, which is why it resonated despite the story issues. Finn, Poe and Rey are mostly action figures moved into place as the plot demands."

Yeah. There were literally parts of Rise of Skywalker where I thought 'I saw this a couple of weeks ago in Frozen 2 and liked it better there.'

Chewbacca recaps the entire previous movie??

That would have been awesome. Though that makes me realize that C-3P0 did that in Return of the Jedi, also in a forest. Olaf ripped off 3P0 confirmed.

Elsa's journey in Frozen II was, in all honesty, at least partially if not entirely ripped off from Moana. Moana was all about yearning to be somewhere else and following the call inside of you to that place in order to fulfill your destiny.

Moana heard a call, was called into unknown territory, and gained a water buddy. She found out about her family's past, and sang the song of her native ancestors and finding herself in it ("I am Moana" / "Song of the Ancestors"). She was good with animals and nature. At the end, she reunited with her family and then chose to follow the path of her mother / staying in another land.

Elsa heard a call, was called into the unknown, and gained a water horse. She found out about her family's past, and sang the song of her native ancestors ("Show Yourself"), all the while being good with animals and nature. At the end, she reunited with her loved one and then chose to follow the path of her mother/staying in another land.

But Moana handled it better than Frozen 2.

Don't get me wrong, the messages of Frozen 1 and Moana resonated with me and both in a different aspect and for different reasons. They're different movies too, despite the “girl+boy+comedy relief sidekick” adventure formula Moana took from Frozen (what differs Moana, Maui and Heihei's group from Anna, Kristoff and Olaf is that Maui didn't need to become a love interest by the end of the movie, in fact it would've been weird for Maui to become Moana's love interest given the age gap).

Frozen 2 recycled almost everything from Moana to build Elsa’s journey. They took a different character’s motivation and put it on Elsa, and that’s why it fell flat for the general audience (except for the "give Elsa a girlfriend" crowd, who wanted another queer anthem and see Honeymaren as a blank slate for them to use for their fantasies). There’s just no emotional investment there. The storyline doesn’t even feel like it fits Elsa's character most of the time. "Show Yourself" is certainly a touching moment, and beautifully executed, but it revolves around a character who apparently went through a personality transplant by the beginning of the movie, and suddenly had the urge to up and leave her home. The home she so desperately wanted to be a part of and be welcomed in the first Frozen. Elsa left, when Moana didn’t.

It’s nice when tropes are used in different contexts for characters in different stories but in terms of storytelling and execution of this particular trope Moana did a greater job than Frozen 2.

Edited by dmcreif on Dec 20th 2019 at 5:10:51 AM