General Star Wars Thread

Why would there be a civil war? Without the implanted override, any obviously illegal order would've been met with suspicion if not outright defiance. And like I said, the whole Naboo debacle was facilitated by private companies being allowed to field their own droid armies, in lieu of a government-sponsored defense force.

Except Naboo isn't some backwater in the outer rim. It's a planet with millenia of history, and is well under the dominion of the Republic. They have jurisdiction there, and have every right to tax trade that happens. If their taxes are anything like real-world taxes, the cost is simply passed to the customer. The businesses themselves barely lose a thing.

Taxes pay for more than simply militaries. They pay for social safety nets as well. The Republic often sends famine relief to beleaguered star systems, as shown in the Clone Wars show. Ostensibly Republic citizens also get some sort of medical care, some sort of financial insurance as well. Republic citizens probably get discounts with the Banking Clan as well. Point is there are plenty of jobs a "Federal" government takes care of, and plenty of reason for it to levy taxes.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

A number of dictatorships also require some degree of brainwashing, such as Hitler Youth. Palpatine just made it literal. In addition, the Imperial dissent was immediate, primarily from the delegation of 2,000, but the Empire itself needed to start doing some horrific things to get the Rebellion going. Just forming was not good enough, as the Clone Wars had just ended and there were probably a number of people who had a "Maybe this IS for the better" attitude in the beginning.

We're shown some of why there was resentment in Star Wars Rebels: Imperial grunts acting like robber barons, demanding tributes of food from locals and such, overreaching with their Eminent Domain on land they likely can't or don't even use and arresting people who refuse to sell their ancestral homes. Pulling stunts like that tends to get people aggravated at you, especially in Outer Rim planets like Lothal and Tatooine, where the Empire's presence is weak.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

One thing I find kind of interesting about Imperial atrocities is that while most of the Empire's policies fit the extreme-right (i.e. Fascist) mold, it also imposed state atheism and nationalized private businesses by force (in the name of stamping out Jedi and Separatists respectively), both of which are typically traits of extreme-leftist (i.e. Communist) dictatorships.

The Horseshoe Effect. Dictators are dictators are dictators are dictators.

edited 29th Nov '16 10:43:53 AM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

Another bit of interesting trivia related to Imperial crimes: You know what the "official" purpose of the Death St- excuse me, "DS-1 Orbital Battlestation" was? Heavy-duty mining. Seriously. Apparently it was supposed to bust apart asteroids and lifeless planets to get the ores inside. Suuuuuuuuure.

Well it's sure more efficient than a galaxy-sized drill.

The Empire still fits the Conservative Republican mold if you take Jedi to be more of a New Age hippie cult, while the military industrial complex is treated as a government crony. The Empire didn't acquire the companies, the companies acquired the Empire.

It's an anti-Nixon caricature, with anti-Bush sentiment thrown in as the franchise developed. Even the First Order sounds like something out of the Trump campaign, though I'm sure that's a mere coincidence.

As I recall, the taxation was supposed to be universal, not just for trade around Naboo. For that matter, considering that space isn't exactly high maintenance, it would be like trying to tax ocean liner routes in international waters. The plan was deliberately pointless and designed to damage the Republic's credibility - y'know, if being thought out by Palpatine wasn't a dead giveaway already.

Speaking of Tatooine, there seems to be no difference in life there under either government. If anything, Jabba operates as a bonafide celebrity under the Republic, while the Empire finds him rotting in his dank little castle and being literally stepped on by random smugglers - the mighty have fallen indeed.

edited 29th Nov '16 10:59:52 AM by indiana404

Oh, now it's totally the proto-Lexx.

I'm fairly certain taxes only happen at docks, not on the high seas. Ostensibly the Republic tax would tax trade at spaceports. Not necessarily having ships waiting at junctures in space and taxing people there.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

Point is, demanding more money, without offering more services, only leads to more trouble. The Republic was about to enact a tax on a space it didn't police, for traders it didn't protect, and let's not forget, at the behest of a senator that, well, didn't have its best interests in mind. I'm not quite sure what purpose is served by defending it.

It's Naboo's tariff to levy, not something enacted on their behalf by the Republic, and let's not forget, the Trade Federation isn't some poor defenseless company at the liberty of the Naboo— they're a megacorporation, pretty much a fiefdom to themselves, with sufficient power to blockade Naboo and invade, and would've done so without anyone knowing if the Queen and Jedi hadn't managed to escape.

The Republic seems to operate as a democracy of planets, rather than people— many of those planets seem to be monarchies or theocracies, not to mention banana republics and cults of personality democratic in name only. The Trade Federation aren't any freer than the Naboo just because they're organized along company lines instead of feudal ones. Going by what we see of the Viceroy's stranglehold over power and Naboo electing its queens, probably less so.

So yeah, the Republic's a big, incomprehensible mess if you look at it too hard. The Trade Federation are in the wrong because they're using their power to basically steal Naboo, regardless of how they feel about the Republic's dense, internecine laws and trade regulations. It's never that simple in real-world terms, but that's the narrative we're seeing.

edited 29th Nov '16 12:41:50 PM by Unsung

Like I said, the bill came from Naboo, but it wasn't just about Naboo. Palpatine proposed the bill, and then, as Sidious, advised the Trade Federation to organize a technically legal blockade as a form of protest against the proposing senator's domain, with any ordinary ambassador being entangled in red tape. So Valorum sent Jedi instead, prompting an escalation of hostilities.

The hostilities escalated due to the Trade Federation's plans to invade East India Trading Company style, which wouldn't have been legal - at the time, they Jedi weren't there as enforcers - just political mediators.

A lot of what the Trade Federation does in regards to the Jedi (and Padme) involves panicking and trying to keep their true intentions from getting out - like a crook who goes on a string of crimes to cover up other crimes (we have a trope for that, but I can't remember the name). The Republic explicitly would have done nothing if they had just been blockading the planet.

edited 29th Nov '16 12:55:02 PM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

By all means, let's blame Palpatine, but he was very careful about doing how he did things as himself, rather than as Sidious. Everything on the Republic side was intentionally as justifiable as possible— the Naboo were well with their rights, and the taxes they were proposing were far from being so onerous that the Trade Federation had cause to invade. It's not like this is the only planet where the Neimoidians had a going concern— it just happened to be vulnerable enough that Palpatine-as-Sidious could play on their greed and make it look too good of an opportunity to pass up.

I'm just saying that the Republic wasn't in the wrong in this case— they were being played, which is bad enough and damn near unforgivable unto itself at that scale, but that's not the same thing as being knowingly corrupt.

edited 29th Nov '16 1:16:22 PM by Unsung

Sending the Jedi as mediators - or any other official ambassador for that matter - would have been a job for the Senate. Instead, Valorum himself acted in secret (per the title crawl), sending the religious psi-corps to "settle" the matter... and given their penchant for what they dub "aggressive negotiations", I wouldn't say it was the Federation jumping the gun on this one.

That's pretty much a problem throughout the prequel trilogy - every single time, the ostensible good guys are the ones easily goaded into striking first. Subverting the Senate in TPM, attacking Geonosis in AOTC, even attempting to arrest/assassinate the Chancellor in ROTS. Every single time, they show disdain for the legal system and their own government, and then balk when it turns against them. Never mind the whole "liberty dies with thunderous applause" line sounding like post-election whining every time a Republican enters office (yes, there are clip edits to that effect for this month as well).

This ties into the necessity of seeing things through the eyes of ordinary people - something barely featured in the original trilogy, and entirely lacking in the prequels. Instead, Lucas seems to like the idea of democracy, same as how he likes having fairy tale princesses in space, but isn't too keen on giving the proles their own voice in his grand vision. Inadvertently, this translates to his characters and the story as well - when the guys shouting allegiance to democracy are the first to ignore any democratic decision they don't like, methinks the Galaxy's better off with the authentic autocrat.

No matter what intentions we can assume the Jedi might have had, the fact is that Frederation did jump the gun - and we know this, because we know for a fact what their intentions were. The weren't attacking due to fear of Republic response, or the Jedi forcing them to end the blockade, they struck first due to fear of being found out.

Which puts the escalating situation on their shoulders, because it makes the whole plot the results of their attempts to hide their wrongdoing.

edited 29th Nov '16 1:27:14 PM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

I'm not sure how aggressive the Jedi's reputation was meant to be at that point. All the works to come out since the prequel trilogy have focused on the Jedi as warriors and generals rather than diplomat-priests, but the impression I got was that this was just the kind of setting where everyone was armed by default. It's called the Republic and the first movie is based on The Hidden Fortress, but it feels more like the Age of Sail rather than Rome, the present, or feudal Japan.

The Trade Federation has rigged their conference room with knockout out/poison gas and blows up the ship that brought the Jedi aboard within minutes of their arrival— not just captured everyone aboard, disintegrated it— and rolls out platoons of droids, including heavy weapons platforms, retreating behind a blast shield half-a-metre thick. It seems like they were prepared for everything but Jedi. So maybe this is still a leap on my part, but I tend to doubt they had any intention of negotiating in good faith.

At the time of the Jedi's arrival, the Federation hadn't done anything explicitly illegal. If anything, the Jedi's investigation would have been found inadmissible by the Senate - and it was, daring escape and all. Legally, the Federation had nothing to fear. However, sending your high ranking officials in the same room as the telepathic thought police is probably not too high on the list of desirable business strategies, just as sending said telepathic thought police with no judicial authorization wouldn't be a prudent legal move... unless you're trying to strongarm the opposing party into a settlement - which is what the Federation actually feared.

They attacked Geonosis because Geonosis was holding Jedi captives. And a Republic Senator. Not to mention having been discovered to be a planet that was manufacturing the armed forces of their enemies.

Blockading a planet and cutting off trade? Technically legal or not, the Trade Federation is potentially causing economic disasters, including famine, lack of medical supplies, etc. Dealing with things like that is exactly why the jedi order exist.

edited 29th Nov '16 1:41:08 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

They were planning and on the cusp of enacting illegal actions, however. The fact that they hadn't actively done it yet, and so that if they had played it cool and patient they could've gotten through the negotiations and gone on with their scheming without anyone figuring it out, is moot - because the fact is they panicked.

And in panicking, made sure the very thing they didn't want happening happened anyway.

edited 29th Nov '16 1:44:17 PM by KnownUnknown

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Asking the Jedi to mediate isn't illegal either, and the Order does have a track record thousands of years long for bringing peaceful, fair resolutions to those diplomatic quarrels which seem break out incessantly in the Republic. I'm sure plenty of people do think of these weird psychic monks as the Republic's thought police in-universe, but the Trade Federation had already set up what amounted to an embargo around Naboo— it wasn't the same as open invasion, but it was hardly fair play.

And the Federation was already in contact with Sidious at that point. What's good for the goose, here— if you want to blame the Republic for Palpatine's misdeeds, I don't think you can say the Trade Federation is less at fault when they fired the first actual shot the minute it looked like their shady dealings were about to come to light.

edited 29th Nov '16 2:15:22 PM by Unsung

Geonosis was holding spies captive - neither Obi-Wan nor Anakin nor Padme had any authorization to land on-planet. The smart thing would've been for Obi-Wan to alert the Council regarding Fett's whereabouts, and then wait for official backup. So again, he basically jumped the gun, acted without authority, got hundreds of people coming to his rescue killed and, well, started a war.

This is another vital element of the prequels - that any time the Jedi overstep their authority, bad things tend to happen. But more importantly, it strikes me that Lucas wanted to have his cake and eat it too, by making the Republic simply too corrupt, a very far cry from the idealized impression of old Ben's fables. The legal options themselves didn't work, especially not with an evil space wizard pulling the strings. I've mused before that Star Wars is not so much a space opera, as it is a straightforward dystopian tale, only set in space, and the Republic being so easy to manipulate into self-destruction is one frequent element of such tales.

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To me, the main problem in the prequels is that there was nothing anyone could've done from the get-go so as to prevent the fall of the Republic. Palpatine's initial Xanatos Gambit was flawless: Present an overbearing bill, then enflame opposition into a legal blockade. Accuse the Republic of corruption. If the blockade works, get pity vote for Chancellor. If the blockade fails, get hero vote for Chancellor. Next, enflame opposition of Republic corruption in handling crisis, particularly among heavy industry. Spark seeds of secession. Mull on establishing army to quell secession. Of course, certain senators would try and vote for peaceful talks. Attempt assassination. If successful, blame secessionists, get outrage vote for army. If failed, send senators packing for their own protection, establish easily manipulated proxies, get their vote for army. Finally, wait for excuse for any side to strike first, and whoever loses, you win.

There's just nothing to be learned from this; it's a paranoid conspiracy nut's wet dream - the system never works, the bad guy always wins, and anything the heroes do still works to his benefit. If not for a particular Force prodigy fighting in a key battle, or for a bunch of teddybears worshiping a golden god, even Yavin and Endor would've ended in total victory. Effectively, the only hero of the story isn't any of the good guys acting with personal agency, but merely random chance throwing a spanner in the bad guy's works.

edited 29th Nov '16 2:17:21 PM by indiana404

Secret doesn't mean illegal, there's no reason to believe the Senate would have said the Jedi ambassadors were illegal. The Trade Federation resorting to murder puts the hostile escalation squarely on them.

I'm not sure why you think 'space opera' and 'dystopia' are incompatible. Most space operas seem to revolve around pretty doubtful governments, with heroes coming out of military organizations or science backgrounds. Democratic governments are obstructionist, paralyzed by infighting or mired in bureaucracy, or just plain corrupt, no matter how well-meaning they are, and prone to juntas and coups, falling to dictatorship or collaboration at the drop of a hat. It's happened before, it will happen again— they're meant to be entertainment, to speak to people in broad terms (mostly based on experiences of people in the earlier 20th Century, which is why the same values don't always hold up so well today). If anything, small kingdoms tend to be idealized, which of course have their beautiful, resourceful, tough, and/or smart space princesses. It's that rugged individualism empowerment fantasy all over again.