Continuation: Our avatars are in a room.

Crystal, you can say what you would like (subject to the no-revealing-private-information-without-permission rule).

All right. Thank you, Mega.

My opinion is the same as before. While I cannot officially say that I vote for Fox to be given a second chance (As I am not involved), I feel myself more aligning in that direction.

As I said, I do not know what kind of history Fox has had, and I understand how causing severe anxiety is something we desperately want to avoid. I know that, if I experienced such distress about someone in the thread, I would desperately want for the source of distress to either back down and/or get barred from me entirely.

I feel like it's not exactly possible to make a real decision on an opinion because of how limited all the info is. I can speak of my personal experiences with Fox, but apparently it's absolutely nothing like what you guys are talking about.

Meanwhile with me, I haven't really had any problem with Fox. He's been really cool, and although we've only started speaking over the last few months or so, I've found myself becoming pretty good friends with him (At least from my perspective, naturally I can't speak for Fox).

Our conversations are good-natured, we've discussed ideas for the FG and have talked about coordinating ideas, we've helped each other out with various things (I've helped him out with Pokemon Sword and Shield a bit with trading version exclusives and he's helped me out with some raid battles), we've discussed various things (FGO and MagiReco as examples), he's offered me advice when I've been a bit uncertain of what to do, and overall he's been a pretty darn good friend.

Naturally this is different than what many of you have experienced, and I understand that. I don't know how recently the stuff that has happened happened, or what the nature of the stuff is.

From my perspective, at least, Fox seems to be a pretty cool guy. I would trust him enough to give him a second chance.

However, I completely understand that banning him might be the option you guys feel is best. I completely understand that.

In the end, I won't argue against either choice. If he gets banned, I'll be disappointed, but entirely understand. If he doesn't get banned, I will be happy for him to have the second chance, and I'll hope and pray that things will go much better for everyone this time.

When the last round of discussions happened, I stayed quiet. I kind of sat back and watched people converse with Fox in the discussion thread. The general sentiment I saw there, in this public discussion, was of cautious optimism that Fox, upon reflection, had grown as a person and recognized the ways he hurt others in the past.

I read all of this and I thought "Well, that's more or less how I'm feeling too" and sort of let it lie. Looking back, I think I probably should have lended my voice after all, so I'll go ahead and do so now.

My own relationship with Fox can be summed up as intense. He was one of the first to learn my real name and that I was dating Eldy. He and I had innumerable little in-jokes and brainstorming sessions and passionate exchanges of fannish enthusiasm for the various things in our little spheres of interest. We were friends, close friends.

Things, of course, got rather sour, and the embers of friendship heated to an inferno of fierce, awful mixed emotion. I won't dump all the gory details here, but I kind of went back and forth between trying to defend him from others and volleying counterattacks of my own at his misdeeds. Between it all, we kind of got catty about current thread events and sort of fed into one another dealing with them unconstructively and I wish I could say I handled that better too. Even though I was an adult, I was pretty immature at this point in time and often lost my temper when trying to put fires out in my circle of friends. I said and did a lot of things that I recognize now as unhelpful to someone struggling, regardless of the bad things they did. Admittedly, I was trying to help, but a lot of the things I did in the name of helping weren't very good or conducive to learning or healing. I wish I could have been a more stable and knowledgeable individual when dealing with those issues, but what's done is done.

Needless to say, things cooled down after they heated up and we drifted apart. We still did (and do, on occasion) talk, but his leave from the public servers broadened the gap. We mutually didn't really have a clue what was going on with the other, save for the occasional small-talk over DM. I didn't really know what to expect when this issue first came up because of the aforementioned mutual dead-air, but like I said before, it did give me a cautious sense of optimism.

I won't sugarcoat it: Fox has hurt me a lot. I'd argue that the exchanges he and I had were some of the most painful that have happened between him and anyone else, just due to that agonizing burn of endangered friendship. This is all stuff I have quite literally shed tears and lost sleep over, so please don't think I mean it lightly when I say I think he should have another go here.

I've been hurt by many people in life, most of them former friends. I won't go into the gory details of that either. I bring it up because I feel his narrative differs from those of friends who didn't actually care or want to change. At the risk of sounding naive and optimistic, Fox seems to actually, like, get the root of it in his statement. I know I cannot expect perfection from him, and I know words can be hollow, but those who say hollow words typically do not address the root cause of why they hurt others or what they've done to curtail it, and he did both of those things. I've heard just about every excuse or faux-apology in the book, but I feel this one's got some weight to it.

Ultimately, it isn't my decision, but I think, considering those circumstances and considering the utter lack of nonsense from his end in many a moon, that Fox should be given another shake.

To close, on a personal note:

Fox, my dude, I apologize for my end of it. I'm sorry I couldn't be more mature in trying to help you through your stuff, and I deeply regret all those times I lost my temper. I've done my own growing, which is part of why I'm so delighted to hear you've been doing yours. It really does help a soul out. I'm still a hermit with very little energy, and I don't have it in me tonight, but we should catch up sometime. There's a lot I haven't spoken of, some good and some very bad. However it ends up going, I wish you all the best in your endeavors. Pet that fluffer pupper boi for me.

I don't have a lot to deliberate on the matter in terms of personal history between the two of us, but I've always believed in giving people the chance to show that they've improved in how they treat others. I'm all for bringing him back.

I used to be in the Arena with Fox. I believed he improved since then. Give him one more chance.

the previous proceedings seemed really strange to me. i dont get why it was so secretive, i certainly don't get why it was supposed to take unanimous consent to keep him while only requiring one person to kick him. since when was that a thing?

it seemed kind of farcical to me to think that, just one private conversation would be enough to remove someone's personal misgivings with fox. like, thats really... if this is a deep seated issue, its not gonna go away via one emotionally powerful discussion like in the movies. its a dialogue both parties have to work for and engage in and actively try to move forward. i can only speak for fox, since his is the only side of this i have seen, but i honestly, truly believe hes trying to make amends and take steps to show hes a new guy. i would not be so vehement about this if i didn't wholeheartedly believe that he's trying here.

i get feeling discomforted with him. but to throw him away the moment he takes steps to try and fix things is not only injust - its cruel, straight up. and it sets a bad precedent.

everyone has been uncomfortable with everyone else here at one point or another. i could count on my fingers people who've wronged me, and people i've wronged, and thats gonna include most people in the thread. does that give me the right to have the mods ban someone because i have personal issues with them? no, and it shouldnt!

the bottom line is, fox isnt just saying sorry and asking ppl to forgive him, hes actually willing to take steps to change his behavior. that really is the key point to me. i think he should stay and we should all try to reconcile

i've never had a lot of personal history with fox myself, and didn't pitch in before due to that. i think this was erroneous of me and wish to correct that now.

for the past who knows how long, probably about 8 months or so, i've been practicing and preaching communication and understanding in the name of conflict resolution. it's an awkward process that requires a level head and a great deal of understanding and tact but is one that i wholly vouch for as it's not only helped me avoid conflict but forge and strengthen bonds of friendship i have with others.

if you're reading this and you've had any honest, probably awkward conversation with be in the past few months you've been on the receiving end of this mindset. it hasn't always worked out perfectly and it's still awkward due to the level of commitment involved. however, it's something i practice and do because i need, hell, want to believe it works and i can say it does.

with that in mind i also believe in getting the full details of any situation before commenting. that's not really possible here, but i have my close friends here who i can trust to put it to me straight and still remain level headed when they run into conflict.

i don't know all the details, but i've spent an incredible amount of time and energy learning not only how to talk to others but paying attention to how they talk to me, and if fox is allowed to rejoin i'll extend the same courtesy to him as i do anyone else.

all this in mind, i'm willing to give him this chance and see what happens.

i'm good with him staying

Also, if I may add it, I agree with everything Space said.

It does seem completely unbalanced and unfair to Fox to have gone "Everyone has to accept him, and if even one person doesn't agree, we're kicking him out". I do have to admit that the secrecy was already a tad awkward, but the whole thing about the way you decided on the banning is something I'm not really keen on.

I know I wouldn't feel good if I got stuck with horrendously unfair odds, and I imagine everyone else in the group would feel horrible, too.

In any case, we're discussing this more openly and less secretly, and I think that will make this far more cohesive and fair.

Edited by CrystalMemoria on Jan 10th 2020 at 9:19:01 AM

I'm going to keep this simple because I have a very bad headache right now. My opinion has not changed since this was originally discussed. Fox should not get a second chance. I have discussed some points with him privately that I won't disclose here due to exact nature of them but he understands as to why I have an issue with them.

However, I will specifically talk about the long running issue with his self-flagellating and the constant talking-behind-the-back involving other players. He knows who because we've discussed it. The reason I've dug my heels on this is because while all this was happening, I heard/was told about a extremely recent incident with him where he had fallen into all of his old previous behaviors, including the flagellating and insults and only seemed to really stop when he was called out on it. That changed everything because to me, it says "okay, he hasn't really changed too much and everything now seems too little, too late." Explicit evidence of him not changing his behavior this recently does not fill me with any hope whatsoever for what he could do in the future.

I understand the idea behind giving him a chance but upon learning that, plus my own discomfort and along with others, I cannot in good faith let him back into the community and I do not think it is fair at all to push that onto others who have made it clear they are beyond uncomfortable with him.

My other issue with this entire thing is that a couple quick conversations were enough to get Chibi banned/kicked from the group and it was a-okay by everyone involved but suddenly, when the same is done with Fox, it's suddenly cruel and unfair? His entire thing revolved around how he made people uncomfortable. He did absolutely nothing that was anywhere NEAR as bad as what Fox had did but somehow, he got the boot quicker.

I understand that so far I am the only "no" but please do not dog-pile on me.

Edited by ChrissieMcNapkins on Jan 11th 2020 at 5:31:04 AM

I find myself pretty conflicted about this, which is more or less why I didn't say anything the first time around. I feel pulled in both directions on this, and it's a bit difficult to reconcile. On the one hand, I haven't personally been involved in the worst of what's happened. I've been involved in some, but not all of it. I may not talk to Fox terribly often these days, but he's still my friend. When the original discussion came up, I intended to carry on our friendship as normal; him potentially leaving didn't (and doesn't) have any bearing on him being my friend. I don not think he's a bad person, but, while it is difficult to say so, I think it's undeniable that the problem behavior is... well, pretty bad. I don't think what he did makes him a bad person, but it's still very serious.

There's a couple other things that are relevant to why I'm conflicted. The first is that Fox's reason for why he acted the way he did is, in my mind, undeniably true. I can only imagine that, were I in his situation, I would have behaved pretty badly, too. I don't think I can express enough sympathy for what he went through, because it's incredibly messed up and just plain awful. Anyone who went through that would act out. In the opposite direction, I think it's pretty undeniable that Fox has done some serious, probably irreparable, damage to some of his relationships here. I can't fault people for being uncomfortable around given what's happened. I think those handful of people have very legitimate grievances, and I think it's very understandable that they would be uncomfortable. I'm not sure I like the thought that they'd be overruled and have Fox stay when they're so uncomfortable with him. It feels a little unfair to me, I don't know.

I think I've avoided getting involved because it's difficult for me. I don't think I'd be very comfortable with either conclusion I came to, because I have reservations in both directions. It legitimately feels bad to say this, but I feel that if I'm really conflicted about it, something about the situation is bad enough that I have to say I don't think the decision should be reversed. It feels wrong to say this about someone I consider a friend, and I don't like saying it. Fox, I still want to be your friend, and I know it'll be hard for you to read this. If you're upset, I understand. I'm not saying this out of any animus towards you. To me, it just seems like the group dynamic has been screwed up, and I think that's the deciding factor.

Okay, so I know I said I had some issues with some of Fox's things IFG in hindsight, but personally, Fox hasn't communicated that much to me, if at all. Any time that I went out of my way to talk to him (which was very rare with TVT's PM system being my only route of communication with him), he seemed pretty chill. However, that doesn't mean the stuff that I mentioned doesn't bother me now.

Now, I realise that might not sound like much in comparison to what everyone else has been saying, and I can respect that. I've only been here less than 3 years, after all, so I don't exactly have the most valid argument.

At the same time, it's clear that some of us haven't seen Fox at his worst, which may be a good or bad thing depending on your POV. The way I see it, now that Ramuf and Chris have said that they're still not trusting of Fox, that makes me think: have the rest of us dodged a bullet? How do we know that Fox won't make the same mistakes again? The simplest answer is we don't know, and this is why I'm still sort of neutral on it.

Are there others that want to chime in on their thoughts that haven't yet?

I would like to add that I don't know anything about Chibi, the incident involving them, or the way their banning worked. That happened before I joined you guys, and if it seems like a double standard, I sincerely apologize. I was just stating my viewpoint.

Overall I don't really like the idea of how the stuff with Fox was tackled (From what I'm reading in the post that started this discussion). I didn't even know how it was tackled until I read the post, and I was just kind of going :/ about it. Then Space posted, and I sort of realized it did kind of bother me. Cue me going "...OK, now that Space has said something, I should probably bring up that it actually kind of bothered me, too".

If this is how you guys do and have tackled things, I won't argue. I just didn't realize that there was a precedent for this.

Edit: I guess my lunch break will do.

My experience with Fox has entirely come from his presence in the Arena, where I am a moderator in the discoed channel. We have a... long history of moderation action involving him, either directly against him or in incidents he was involved in. Even nowadays we still have issues with some of his behavior, especially his resistance to authority when we ask him to leave a subject alone or let moderators handle things.

Even still, I’m in favor of allowing him to continue playing in the FG. Because unlike most perennial behavior issues in the Arena, he not only intended to improve but actually has. I, personally, haven’t been called in to deal with a behavioral incident of his in quite a while, and while I didn’t have time to get every moderators opinion the ones I have gotten confirm my impression that he’s mellowed out significantly from where he was even a year ago, where we seriously considered banning him.

Edited by 4maskwolf on Jan 11th 2020 at 5:32:22 AM

Regarding Chris's objection on the grounds that Chibi didn't face the same treatment in his ousting:

Chibi's case isn't comparable, in my opinion, as he didn't integrate or participate with the group in the same way Fox did. When it was discussed, he didn't have any friends (former or otherwise) to come to his defense because he didn't really end up making any.

He was just kinda there on the side in addition to his problem behavior, so the discussion couldn't have progressed to this stage. Even though Fox has circumstances in common and also exhibited problem behavior/made people super uncomfortable, he actually did make friends and have a solid RP and FG history.

Additionally, Fox ended up doing more damage simply because he managed to make friends, as I kinda touched upon in my deal with the whole pain of endangered friendships thing. It's kind of a double edged sword, if the analogy makes sense.

i feel like wolf's perspective id probably the closest thing to an objective view here

as well as showing an actual credible trajectory of growth and improvement on fox's part

Our intention was for discussion to conclude in a day or so. Do people feel that enough has been said so far? Is anyone still working on response?

Okay, so I've been keeping quiet on this topic, at least in public for the reason that this is a very, very anxiety-inducing topic. As I type this post, I listen to soothing sounds of a blizzard in order to stop my chest from tightening to an unbearable degree.

This isn't easy for me to do, and I can't say I'm even comfortable with my own opinion at times as I stress and worry about if it is or is not valid, particularly with the input of others.

I find myself questioning my own logic as I see good cases brought up in opposition, and in any other case I'd find myself agreeing with them. But in this case I can't.

I was the one who stepped up, and brought forward the topic to the dispute moderators, as it had gotten to a point where I was told that I ought to. I would never have brought it forward otherwise; and fretted in private as I grow more and more... well, to put it bluntly. Fearful.

The isolation, and the circumstances under which he went on this isolation, did nothing to resolve things. It buried my anxiety, and let it fester. I can't give a rational, detailed account, of how I got to the point I found myself for the past years.

But I know it started, much like mobile's account, from a place of friendship. I used to be in dms with fox a fair amount, and I'd find myself at times, losing sleep trying to talk him down from depreciation and the like. I was essentially, trying to help in the best way I knew how, even when I myself have at similar times and over the years have been in an unsound state of mind. But eventually my patience ran out, and I burned out. I found it hard, to care as much as I wanted to- particularly as I heard rumours of his misconduct with others and naturally bore witness to a few flareouts.

Then, came the talks around banning him the first time, that eventually led to his isolation. I had a hand in creating this isolation, and so naturally there is a significant amount of self-hatred that I created the very situation that brought me this feeling of it all being unresolved.

Fox was in another discord server, that I ran, at the time. And although this part isn't directly his fault, it contributes to my feelings around him. When I was present in the discussion to ban him for his misconducts at the time, we had come to an agreement that would have been carried out had I not, rashly, acted preemptively.

I had kicked fox out of that server without any notification, out of fear of a retaliatory storm to wake up to as I had believed the ban would happen while I was asleep. This, did not happen, and I ended up tasked with something that I wasn't prepared to do- which was to tell a half-truth to his face in a dm, about why I had kicked him without bringing up that there was already discussion, and a plan, to ban him. This conversation with him, may have tipped the balance on how severe this anxiety became.

Because had I not acted rashly, and created this situation that unlike mobile, I had no contact with fox for the entirety of it, I would never have had to worry so much. I cannot see the change in fox for myself; tinted as I am with yesteryear.

And so, in the years that followed; every, single, time that fox surfaced again in the fg or elsewhere- even the mere mention could, and did, give me anxiety. There are times where I stop playing the game entirely because fox is in the fg at the same time. I could get eager to throw my hat out there, and the singular moment I see the name, my interest shuts down and I go and do something else.

And the longer it grew, the more the fear of fox returning would be. Mostly because yes, everything felt to me unresolved. The time didn't factor in in a positive way for me, even when rationally I would usually accept this. I vouched for Pancake to return to the thread when he asked, and I personally fretted over the decision over chibi as to whether it was really fair, lack of previous connections aside.

And the other part of that is that; because I see that as the rational course- that runs counter to my feelings on the matter- i struggle with the validation of my position. I've played out in my head all these arguments for letting fox back in, numerous times, as I grew anxious about the day I would have to try and cope with this possibility. Believe me, I only got more anxious over time because I found myself struggling to find a reason to be opposed that I could wholly believe in.

I almost didn't want to bring up this anxiety I had, because the response would exacerbate it upon inspection, and potentially bring about exactly what caused me anxiety.

And I did, give fox a chance in the mediation that the dispute moderators had set up, to sit down with him in a chat despite my incredible discomfort. Despite what it may look like above, I really did want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But try as I might, I couldn't bring myself to accept the offer of private correspondence.

It may seem cruel, even callous, but I can't bring myself to start building bridges and it's irresponsible and maybe even more cruel to insist that fox would have to do all the work.

But, that's where I stand. Conflicted, yet wholly opposed. I don't like fighting, and I don't like conflict. And I have to come to terms with the fact that I, despite what I would otherwise want, cannot for my own mental health agree with the return of fox.

And I'm very sorry for that.

thank you for taking the effort to post this olive, i can get that it'd be really hard to deal with

i think... this is me but even with this situation i think it's possible to get things resolved

even if that involves mediating over time, trying to bring your comfort level up and trying to get things fixed

even if it's literally me acting as an inbetween and no direct words being exchanged i would 100% be willing to try to help reassure you and help you out with this

i think... this is me speaking for someone else, of course, but between having to shoulder a lot of the work + getting banned, i think fox would be willing to put in a lot of effort to fix it if it was the alternative to be getting banned

it doesn't gotta be an all or nothing thing if you ask me! we can all take steps to try to fix this - you're not alone here, i think everyone would be able to do what they can to help sort stuff out

Respectfully space, I can't agree.

I want to, but I can't.

This course of mediation you suggest would add an unknown quantity in the situation- the fact that it's not direct words. My anxiety feeds paranoia, and that'll lead me to believe that words may be doctored for my benefit; precisely to just 'fix' what causes me pain.

My feelings on fox from yesteryear include the very reason why this course of mediation, as well as group chats, would not work on me. My view on fox is poisoned by a belief of things being rather manipulative. Of course he would act in x way, if x way is preventing him from being banned.

This is an unfair stance, just as a natural course of the nature of distrust. I recognise that. But it's a position of trust that can't be rebuilt with part of the motivation here being 'this will stop me from being banned.'

There is a notion here that, yes fox didn't know this caused me such discomfort, but over the years there was zero attempt to reach out. Zero. There was no attempt to build bridges until this matter had been brought forward by me to the mods. Maybe the idea of mediation over time, would have worked had it been planned; and helped by the folks still in contact with fox to have it come to fruition instead of the wheels suddenly turning when the question of a ban is on the table.

This to me does not inspire my confidence that fox ever decided that it'd be worth time to reach out a hand, considering our past. To mend any wounds that could be there. It did not come from fox's own decision, without context of this discussion and address of the situation.

I do not have much input to give regarding Fox. We have not interacted very much outside of FG and RP matters (maybe a single conversation here and there) and I have very little knowledge of the circumstances that led to this discussion. I will put my trust in whatever judgment the GM's make in the end.

i just wanna preface this that i wholly get how hard and stressful this whole situation is for you olive, i in no means want to downplay or diminish your feelings with this

the thing is right... fox could never have said anything if he never knew this was eating you up, you know? heck i was there for this incident and didnt realize it caused this level of stress on you until now. the idea of him approaching you to apologize for negative feelings caused by something you felt pressured to do to him wouldn't occur to him as a person outside of you, particularly if he didnt know you felt pressured in the first place

like i totally get how this might not be something you want to hear, but to resolve stuff like this you got to be willing to try and trust ppl when an attempt at making amends does come, and accept things will happen when they happen. yes itd be a lot better if things were cleared up earlier, but we live in the now, where no one has perfect information or understanding, and we got to try to trust other ppl with what weve got in order to reach a good conclusion

besides that... banning fox is an out of sight out of mind thing, sure, but i dont really think it does anything to resolve the underlying anxiety of 'i am going to get stressful retribution for this thing i felt pressured to do'

No, the anxiety isn't that 'the punishment for this thing is going to come' it's more that the punishment already came and was ongoing in that fox was in that limbo of not really being here, yet still causing me stress.

That was the punishment for my rashness. And I must stress that although the circumstances around the creation of his isolation are a catalyst for greater hard feelings, that there are multiple reasons outside of that for such reasons to begin in the first place.

If I had zero problems with fox in dms beforehand and was not burned out; sure the half-baked explanation as to why I kicked him would've still sucked. But it would not have been something that I'd go back to and curse myself over.

Because I did want fox banned back then; i thought things had gotten to a point where he ought to leave. Both for myself, and for others' sake. But I had unwittingly prevented the very thing I wanted, and formed this isolated case where he both wouldn't have the chance to do anything further wrong; yet also was not actually gone. It froze the situation, it didn't resolve it for wounds to start patching up over time. That's what burns me about it.

And my point over the zero attempts at reaching out was not centred around that specific circumstance for his isolation. Because I have always known that until the mediation, fox did not know about that aspect of the affair.

If anything I'd hope for an attempt to reach out because he wouldn't know about it.

Ignorance on the extremity of the matter can cut both ways here. It both says for you that he has no reason to reach out, and it says to me that he has no reason to not reach out. Particularly if any hatchets he had for me had been buried, which I'm expected to believe. And I'm inclined to lean towards that, but I can't ignore the reality of my feelings.

And this still doesn't change the context of these amends. I've been diplomatic and truthful in my conduct, in that yes I do feel conflicted on a wholly rational and objective level; but on an emotional level I am not conflicted.

But it seems that keeps muddying the waters of my argument.

I know I said I was gonna stay out of this, but I really think it's kind of unreasonable to ask Olive to put aside all of his emotions so that someone who really hurt him can have a second chance. It doesn't sit well with me, at all. And as someone who has struggled with abuse and anxiety, it sends a very unfriendly message to me. Which is not to call Fox an abuser, I'm just trying to be completely open about how I feel here.