Chrono Cross is not a sequel to Chrono Trigger

Does that mean I won?

I said "try", not "succeed".

And I feel an irrational need to wipe that grin off your avatar's face. It's nothing to do with you.

I have a message from another time...

This thread has grown a bit! I've noticed people pointing out problems within the main plot, but what about the sub-plots? Specifically, I didn't much like how you basically ignore your sweetheart Leena after you meet Kid. Kind of awkward that you are basically about to propose to the girl just as the story takes off, yet the minute you meet with Kid you are pretty much paired with Kid (even if you tell her to get lost...over and over again...). Finding yourself stranded in a world where the love of your life never even had a chance to get to know you should have meant something...I mean, I know if I was in that situation, the longing and pain of unrequited love would have definitely had an emotional impact on me, but the story simply did not even allow you to explore that possibility.

Also, in the ending that you do end up with Leena, what happened to the other Leena? Did the time-streams merge together, or did you simply just abandon one of them?

Finally, they had one big Missed Moment of Awesome in my eyes. Once Serge learned to cross between the time-streams...he could have had two Leenas at the same time. Just saying is all...

(pats on back) Chin up, pal. You'll get 'em next time.

edited 21st Sep '11 10:18:09 AM by X2X

"Oh no, Sanji's Chronic Simprosis!" - Kou The Mad

I never really understood the pairing of Kid and Serge. She shows nothing resembling romantic interest in Serge and the blue haired kid is basically a block of wood with no emotions. That's the exact same reason why revealing Lynx was Wazuki fell flat.

It's difficult at best to define character for a silent protagonist, but they could give some animations or something to give some hints. Crono had something to hint at his emotions from time to time.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all" Futurama, Godfellas

Sorry if I didn't seem civil with my last post, I just don't take too kindly to being told that my arguments are complete lies.

I just want to reiterate that:

Dinopolis was moved intentionally by the Entity(the planet).

In-game dialogue implies that Schala perceives time linearly(one character even says she's been "waiting", which wouldn't be possible in a dimension with no concept of time, and another character refers to her as having "traveled forward" in time).

'Cept I explicitly made it clear I was ignoring him being a mime. I have no problem with silent protagonists. It's when other characters start making up personality traits for said character that it becomes a problem, and it's especially annoying when it comes to things like love.

How can one build a deep emotional connection to something that has no emotions? Sounds more like creepy obsession to me, assigning reciprocated feelings to someone that has none. Yet the game treats it as real love. It makes no sense.

And yeah, I know other games do it. I've complained about Alyx/Gordon before. All it means is that games other than Chrono Cross also have nonsensical loves stories, doesn't make it any less nonsensical.

So really, I'm complaining more about characters that aren't Serge. Also the fact that some plots twists are built to glean a reaction from Serge even though the writer knew he wouldn't be able to react.

Firstly: Having a character's subplot end in an out of nowhere and senseless twist is extremely jarring.

Secondly: My complaint about Kid is the attempt to shoehorn a superfluous evolution theme into everything.

The French thing was just a bad joke about the out of place and superfluous accent. My actual problem with her is that:

1) Her arc is completely out of nowhere. There's no real build up, she just suddenly decides she's in love with Serge.

2) Even if her arc was well paced, she simply has no reason to be in love with a non-character, and it makes her feel like less of a consistent character. At least Kid was saved by Serge in the past due to time shenanigans(not a reason for love, but some kind of affection is justified).

His in game dialogue implies he still needed Serge to do something. It's the reason he runs away from his fights with you despite not being hurt at all. It's implied he could try to kill you at those points but settles making monologues about how much of a jerk he is.

Heck, immediately after switching bodies, Serge, Kid, and whoever were down for the count. But Lynx just decides to take Kid and leave, even though it would take a simple dagger to the face to finish off Serge once and for all.

So totally made up that the environmental slant of the bosses in Terra Tower? That El Nido is, like, the most pollution free place ever? Or are you saying I made up the fact that the TD had killed the Dragon God's true form in the darkness beyond time?

Two of those things are told to you, the third is readily apparent just by looking at any random screenshot of El Nido.

He's a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere. No build up, just bam Lavos, the end.

I mentioned all of these things in my post. If you're saying you just wanted me to expand on those points, I've no problem with that. Did you want me to go easy on the jokes? Sure, I can see how that's needless and/or annoying.

Saying I never brought up those points in the first place or that I was just making things up? I can only suggest you read my post again.

edited 21st Sep '11 2:04:45 PM by JotunofBoredom

Umbran Climax◊

Yes, it's implied that she perceives time... but it's implied by people who want you to help her. I mean, it really wouldn't do for them to say "Oh, Schala doesn't actually perceive time, so you can wait forever, before you bother to help her, and she won't even know the difference..."

And since you said earlier, Jotun, that the Exposition Fairy says that Schala doesn't perceive time... I really don't understand the complaint...

Unless the complaint is that the entire idea of a Timey-Wimey Ball in Chrono Cross is stupid... In which case, I'll just respond with: "It was stupid in Chrono Trigger too..."

I wasn't complaining about that actually. It was brought up to counter one of my points. Specifically that Schala's reasons for making Serge the Time Devourer's arbiter are dumb.

It's because he was crying in pain by the way. So why didn't she just pick another crying baby? There are lots throughout all time.

As for both games having badly explained and extremely inconsistent time physics, is the implication here that my argument is inconsistent?

Because I already said that Chrono Trigger had similar problems on the last page. Post # 64 if you have trouble finding it.

edited 21st Sep '11 2:41:17 PM by JotunofBoredom

Umbran Climax◊

The thing is, the inconsistency in temporal physics in Chrono Trigger didn't clash with the themes and tones of the game.

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com

Probably because if she does choose a different crying baby, there probably isn't a game?... I mean, I thought the reason why it all works out is because Schala just happens to choose a crying baby inside the time-paradox-saving-bubble-world that Serge just happens to live in... And if Schala chose a different crying baby, nothing would have happened(unless that baby also happened to be in the bubble-world)...

No. The implication is that the inconsistencies in dealing with temporal mechanics in both games may make them confusing... But they don't make the events, that created the inconsistencies, inherently stupid(nor the events affected by the inconsistencies)...

YMMV

edited 21st Sep '11 2:58:32 PM by Swish

Yeah I get that anything that happens in a story only occurs because the plot says it does, but one is still supposed to make it so the things that do happen don't come off as contrived.

At this point, it probably would have felt more natural if Serge actually had become the Arbiter by accident. Better yet, if Schala only made an attempt to interfere when she saw people(Serge, Wazuki, and Lenna's dad) traveling somewhere near the place where Chronopolis was hidden and that one of them was dying.

It makes Schala saving Serge still her intention, but at the same time it doesn't seem like a random whim.

I'm not at all sure how

was supposed to portray all of that information, like, at all.

I'm also not sure why you're telling me this, as I was not the one who brought up the timey wimey logic, just the fact that it was inconsistent(which you're apparently agreeing with me on?).

Umbran Climax◊

Whether or not it's contrived (or rather, to what degree it is), is dependent upon the player. Is that plot thread more contrived than some of the ones contained in Chrono Trigger? Entirely debatable...

It was in my first post...

I don't understand your complaint regarding the whole Schala thing. The only reason I can come up with, by your previous posts, is the Timey-Wimey Ball aspect... Which is, by definition, inconsistencies in temporal mechanics.

... But if it's something more simple... Along the lines of "I think it's stupid and I don't like it"(which is what your last two posts make your opinion on the Schala thing out to be)... Well, that probably should just have been said from the very beginning...

I feel it's contrived because, while it is needed for the story to happen, there's still not much of a reason why it happened.

Umbran Climax◊

Doesn't that kind of describe the story itself?

As far as I can tell, the story is one long string of convoluted things happening after another, with a couple dozen people deciding to follow the events for absolutely no reason at all.

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander

You offer no actual argument for this. You just state it as if it were fact. Maybe you make an argument in the post that got thumped, but I didn't get to read it. I've explained my reasoning for why I think the Terra Tower/Chronopolis situation was analogous to Serge traveling between Home/Another world, and all you've said in response is "no, you're wrong".

And I'm saying that that's a necessary innaccuracy due to the limitations of our language. See Time-Travel Tense Trouble.

You can't have it both ways. You're either okay with the fact that he's a Heroic Mime and that all emotional responses are, by necessity, protected onto him by other characters that aren't mute, or you're not okay with the fact that he's a Heroic Mime.

Chrono Trigger does it. It seems a bit disingenuous to complain about Chrono Cross not being as good as/a proper sequel to Chrono Trigger and then single out something that's equally applicable to both games.

It's a Plot Twist. It's supposed to be out of nowhere and extremely jarring. If it doesn't make you sit back and go "wait, what?!" then it hasn't been executed properly. If you didn't like the twist about Kid's origins, then that's perfectly alright, but criticizing a twist for being unexpected is odd.

I honestly don't remember a superfluous evolution thing in anything to do with Kid. This may be because it's been so long since I played, but I don't think I would have forgotten it if it was as big a deal as you imply.

It's not out of nowhere if you pay attention to her parallels with Kid. Harle and Kid are mirror images of each other. It's not surprising that they'd both fall in love with Serge.

It's not like he just left Serge walk away. He banished him to the trippy space between dimensions where Sprigg lived, and expected him to be stuck there forever. So, yeah, it was an overly elaborate Death Trap, but "Lynx hasn't read the Evil Overlord list" is not the same thing as "Lynx didn't try to kill Serge".

The reason that the Dragon God wants to kill Fate is because it was keeping it trapped; destroying Fate released the Dragon God. The reason it wanted to kill off humanity was because humanity genocided its species (ie, the same reason an ultra-powerful refugee from the human world would want revenge if it was stranded in the reptite world).

Only if you ignore the bits about the ending of CT causing a Time Paradox. Was it abrupt? Yes. Could it have been handled better? Sure. But there's a reason Lavos shows up and why you have to fight him the way you do — he's not a complete Giant Space Flea from Nowhere like, say, Necron from Final Fantasy IX.

Because how many other crying babies were interacting with the Frozen Flame? IE, a piece of Lavos, who Schala was Fusion Dance'd with? Your complaint about that point was that Serge only messed with the Frozen Flame after Schala sent him help, which is why the whole nonlinear time thing got started. The point is that trying to imply linear cause -> effect on a character that exists outside of time is silly. To put it as simply as possible, it's entirely reasonable to think of it as Schala noticing Serge because he messed with the Frozen Flame, looking into the "past" (in quotes because Schala couldn't really be said to look "before" or "after" anything, what with not being in the timeline at all) and seeing Serge crying in pain, deciding to help him because of that, and sending Kid to a time even before then. The reason only Serge grabbed her attention is because only Serge interacted with the Frozen Flame.

What makes you say that? I don't think they do.

edited 21st Sep '11 5:15:56 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I may not be too experienced with Chrono Cross and its utterly inane plot, but...

There's a specific name for this kind of twist, and it's generally not looked upon as good storytelling.

edited 21st Sep '11 5:48:51 PM by Deathonabun

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander

A good plot twist is one that is both surprising when it happens, but obvious in retrospect.

All you said was "there was an imbalance and dinopolis filled it", which doesn't actually mean anything. An imbalance of what. High tech cities? So now that there are two high tech cities there is no more imbalance?

Oh hey look a direct infodump quote from Kid: "But that ain't all... At the same time, another city from a different dimension's future, was also thrown back in time. Dinopolis... The future city of the Reptites -- Azala's descendants, who had evolved more closely with the planet. Just as Lavos, in an attempt to save itself, summoned Chronopolis from the distant future... Perhaps our planet beckoned Dinopolis into the past...maybe as a measure against Chronopolis and humanity."◊

You get this quote right after beating FATE.

Sorry it took me so long to find it. This game has so many out of place info dumps, I couldn't remember which one had that bit.

So basically.... I should take your word over what the game has actually told me.

Yeah you can, actually. Portal2 and Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne both have silent protagonists, yet still lack Cross' jarring moments(partially because when characters do actually project false ideas onto the main character, they're being delusional).

When I entered this thread I was just talking about how CC's plot is bad. I never said or implied Triggers' was flawless. Oh now you're doing the same thing to me that Kid kept doing to Serge. Well I'll have you know my voice works just fine in real life!

Twists can be surprising, yet still be backed up by logic and built up through foreshadowing. In fact all the best twists are exactly that.

As I said in my first post about characters, her character arc makes reference to survival of the fittest....

Also, dude, you forgot that Belthasar planned everything, which is pretty significant considering it's supposed to tie every plot point together.

But it doesn't make sense for Kid to fall in love with Serge either soooo...

"Too soon" implies he's okay with Serge getting his body back, just not yet. Like Serge getting his body back is part of the plan, it's just happening too early.◊ Also you fight Lynx here, despite the fact that he doesn't seem injured he still just kinda wanders off instead of trying to kill you.

Yeah, more fan theories.

But what does the game say? Nope.◊

Those screenshots are out of order by the way, "now for mankind" is supposed to go first but I wasn't paying that much attention when I put them there, my bad.

But like with the other twists, you need foreshadowing. Just dropping huge chunks of plot with no kind of build up confuses people. Hell, even if someone played Chrono Trigger I doubt they'd see any kind of clues to Lavos being the badguy again until five minutes before the final boss where the game just outright tells you "oh by the way, Lavos".

Well for one a time paradox occurs early on in Trigger and is treated completely differently from the way the rest of the series treats paradoxes. After the paradox where Marle no longer exists, she just disappears. And you can't say the alternate universe must have been born offscreen because if Marle never existed in the game's dimension then Chrono and Lucca would never have a reason or opportunity to travel through the first time gate. So if they still existed in a dimension where Marle didn't they wouldn't even have gone on their adventure in the first place.

Also Serge's paradox is even more inconsistent. No darkness at the end of time stuff, the world just splits into 2 dimensions.

Also, by your logic of The Entity not having done anything with the dimensions, how was the reptite dimension formed if there was never any paradox concerning Lavos falling to earth(in the reptite dimension they survive because Lavos isn't around to cause the ice age)?

edited 21st Sep '11 6:37:59 PM by JotunofBoredom

Umbran Climax◊

Unfortunately, I don't think that applies to Cross.

"Oh no, Sanji's Chronic Simprosis!" - Kou The Mad

I was simply making a statement, not saying whether it applied to Chrono Cross or not. I personally cannot say as I haven't played much of it as I didn't care for the combat system and I found the beginning rather slow as compared to Chrono Trigger.

edited 21st Sep '11 9:06:00 PM by BigMadDraco

Re: The OP.

Yes it is. A sequel is defined as:

1 : consequence, result 2 a : subsequent development b : the next installment (as of a speech or story); especially : a literary, cinematic, or televised work continuing the course of a story begun in a preceding one

The events, characters, villains, and they very ground you walk on in CC is a direct result of the plot of CT. Not caring for how they went about it doesn't make it less true.

There is much more to be said on this, but it will have to wait till morning. The iPhone is hardly the ideal platform for this level of ranting.

Harem anime are like soccer. They go on for hours, nobody scores, and a million fans will insist that you just don't understand.

Obviously Chrono Cross was literally a sequel to Chrono Trigger. But we also have a concept of a Spiritual Sequel, and Chrono Cross is in a sense the opposite, a work whose events take place in sequence with those of another work, but which is in every way defiant of the spirit of the previous work.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.

No, its really not.

The best thing about CC is how it deals with the canon of CT. The CT party saw a problem with the future of the world and decided to fix it. They succeeded. It was the most noblest of intentions.

Hey remind me real quick: What is the road to hell paved with again?

Yes, CC calls out the charterers of CT and the actions they took and explains (poorly) how it was all A Bad Thing. Gasp! You mean a trio of teenagers, a cave woman with an IQ that would get her placed in a special school in a more modern setting, a angsty orphan with more power than sense, a talking frog, and a robot created to kill people really aren't a match for an Eldritch Abomination from beyond the stars? Don't get me wrong, Chrono Trigger is my favorite game ever. I play through it at least once every two years. Only Persona 3 came close to unseating it. But the fact that the best ending from that game had a plethora of unintended consequences was a stroke of genius, and the best thing about Cross. CT is what happnes when you decide to Screw Destiny. CC is what happnes when Destiny, upset over the non-consensual screwing, buys a gun, and proceeds to shoot you in the face.

Actions have consequences. Just because they were not what you intended or even conceived of, doesn't mean that they dont happen. And when you have higher-level beings like the Entity and Lavos and FATE involved, to say nothing of the concepts of time travel and dimensional travel, things can get wildly out of control very, very fast. Really, Cross kind of had to be as convoluted as it wound up being just to straighten all that mess out.

No, the problem with CC is not what it did to the 'spirit' of CT, whatever that means. The problem with CC is the piss-poor way they went about sharing all this with the player. The pacing was ass, the characters were as lifeless as the polygons used to render them, the narrative reduced to bland info dumps more fitting to bad fanfiction than a published game, inconsistent rules governing dimensional travel, the bad kind of illusion of choice in was a very linear game, a battle system that it either lover it or hate it (I Hated it), and an ending that would make Gainax themselves fall to their knees and bow, while calling out "We're not worthy!" at the top of their lungs. Cross has plenty of failings on its own; there is no need to manufacture more.

Music was awesome though.

edited 22nd Sep '11 6:15:18 AM by J.C.Lately

Harem anime are like soccer. They go on for hours, nobody scores, and a million fans will insist that you just don't understand.

They are if they Level Grind!

I have a message from another time...