Venezuela and the Chavez Legacy

Again, if a government is using the standard right-wing model to dismantle social services, how does it make sense to call it leftist? Which specific left-wing principles and school of thought is Maduro operating according to, and how?

There’s some reports that NG soldiers are leaving their border posts to help bring in humanitarian aid, according to opposition politicians.

——

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47343918

Found an AFP image of two Venezuelan soldiers detained the minute they stepped into Colombin territory.

They still own PDVSA for one thing. Last time I checked, the government controlling the means of production was a socialist thing.

Edited by M84 on Feb 23rd 2019 at 11:11:34 PM

The fact that you're suggesting Russia as an alternative really shows me how little I should take your "it's political and thus baaad" position seriously, they are literally allies of Maduro's regime and thus if they're the ones who hand out humanitarian aid they will almost certainly do it in such a way to bolster his rule. You're blatantly advocating that we cease sending aid that's meant to weaken his position in favor of aid that will bolster it.

No, we should keep on doing what we're doing. If Maduro blocks it that's on his head.

Furthermore, I have not supported Abrams as special envoy. But the Trump administration is gonna Trump administration, doesn't mean the Aid isn't worth it or that Russia of all people would be a better aid source.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 23rd 2019 at 10:28:40 AM

PDVSA is a public-private partnership thanks to its partial purchase of Citgo in 1986 - it's equally beholden to the Venezuelan state and to American shareholders. PP Ps are the signature business model of the European right, pioneered by leaders like Margaret Thatcher - they privatise profits and publicise risks. Tying his entire economic model to a PPP was one of Chavez's biggest mistakes - they only make sense if your objective is to loot the public sector in order to discredit it and bring in privatisation, they don't work the other way around.

That only makes sense if Russia makes its deployment of aid conditional on Maduro crushing the opposition. Which they might do (although Putin's opportunistic enough that he's probably already started talking to Guaidó), but they aren't making their aid conditional at the moment and America is. Humanitarian organisations can only talk in the here and now, not about what-may-bes, and right now, Abrams is seriously threatening the entire model that they operate on. Seriously, were you not reading what I said about perfidy and its likely consequences in the near future? Do you really want to see Red Cross personnel getting gunned down in the next humanitarian crisis because America couldn't keep its dick in its pants, or Russia taking a leaf from Abrams's book and using the promise of food aid to install their preferred flavour of fascist?

Edited by Iaculus on Feb 23rd 2019 at 3:43:43 PM

Actually Citgo's majority shareholder was PDVSA. PDVSA bought 50% of the shares in 1986, and got the remainder in 1990. American shareholders were not really relevant.

And Citgo was until very recently also a total shitshow of nepotism and corruption on the part of the Venezuelan government.

Speaking of Citgo...

The battle for Citgo: How Venezuela's opposition leaders seized control

Edited by M84 on Feb 23rd 2019 at 11:51:31 PM

?

Also, that means

Dictator: Shoots Red Cross

Dictator : Why [America] forced me!!

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 23rd 2019 at 10:57:39 AM

Yeah, but they're still dead and the people they were supposed to help are still dying. Perfidy is something that aid organisations take incredibly seriously, and they and their lawyers will come down on you like a tonne of bricks for even beginning to suggest it. They remember how nasty things got pre-1945, and they have no interest in going back to those days.

They have the right to make their complaints, and the US has the right to do what it will to help the people of Venezuela and oppose Maduro. That article did not just list complaints from aid organizations, it also described Venezuelans who wanted us to continue helping their people.

My position is unchanged.

The people (and specifically the workers) controlling the means of production is a socialist thing, you're being disingenuous.

Edited by Robrecht on Feb 23rd 2019 at 7:16:39 PM

And for non-socialists, the insistence on the part of socialists that people they supported for decades as fellow socialists aren't actually socialists is highly suspect.

I can accept the idea they're degenerated socialists but don't act as if they have no connection to socialism. Just because vanguardist Marxist-Leninist socialism is no longer supported by most socialists does not mean that it is not at-least somewhat socialist, revisionism aside.

Regardless, I would be more convinced by the claims of socialists that Venezuela isn't socialist if they would stop playing apologist for Maduro and blaming all of Venezuela's problems on the US.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 23rd 2019 at 1:29:48 PM

Just to be clear Iaculus, Chavez and Maduro followed the Cuban school of socialism, not to mention that they took the socialist principles and kept pounding on them at every chance possible.

Also, there’s one thing I don’t get, you do realize that the reason why aid is politicized is because Guaido is trying to end Maduro’s dictatorship, so what are you trying to say? That we should not take the chance to actually cut the root of the problem and keep dealing with the symptoms (people dying) instead of the disease? Or even worse, that Venezuela dying is still a better choice than the risk (and I say risk, not certainty) of Usonian intervention?

I would have a much easier time believing leftists have truly learned from their Cold War tankie forebears and that their claims to disavowal of authoritarianism are done in good faith as opposed to just situational cases of No True Scotsman, if they didn't bend over backwards right afterwards to defend them and diss the opposition anyways. You also see this all the time with the Castro apologists who aren't trying to erase his crimes outright. Some leftists might howl at the following for their lack of solidarity and false consciousness, but "I'm not defending him, because I truly don't consider this faker worth defending" is a much more respectable stance than "I'm not defending him, buuuuuut..." Which is why I have a hard time taking a lot of leftists seriously.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 23rd 2019 at 1:37:46 PM

Trust me, this is one of the reasons why Centrism is a valid political alternative in the region, when the left-wing indulges in Castro, guerilla or terrorist apologia, there’s no wonder when people turn their backs on them with the same contempt as with the right-wing oligarchists.

I'm saying that humanitarian aid is not the weapon you want to use, because that just provides incentive for the next dictatorship facing a crisis to close its borders to aid (or incentive for other malicious actors to blackmail countries into installing dictatorships by making it a condition for aid to be delivered). This is important in general (pay attention to the next big natural disaster you see, how many it kills, what the government of the affected country is like, and how much of an impact international aid has), but especially important because of the global ecological crisis we're merrily steaming into.

I'd also say that Maduro seems to have departed heavily from the Cuban model, which at least performs its primary function of a guaranteed minimum standard of living through social services to a reasonable extent. Venezuelan social services seem to have been repurposed into cronyist money-laundering schemes in a manner barely distinguishable from the mechanisms of European austerity.

Then leftists should stop treating Maduro like an innocent victim of circumstance if he really is such a bad exemplar of leftism. Most of the time I see good faith No True Scotsman coming from non-socialists accusing leftist Maduro apologists of hypocrisy or a lack of irony, as apparently they'd prefer to die on the hill of defending anyone who wears a leftist mask no matter what over those who'd walk the talk but don't bother with the label.

That’s kind of the issue we have here with the left, they seem to obsessed with being seen as pure good and incapable of doing mistakes and whenever one of their own does something bad, they pull out the No True Scotsman card instead of properly addressing the problem, which in turn makes them look like a Never My Fault group.

Edited by raziel365 on Feb 23rd 2019 at 11:09:47 AM

I find that baffling because as anyone that have see my political posts. I think that the Left is right almost all the time.

That they are unable to accept the few times they failed, baffles me

While I have a more cynical view of the left (and of the right, but that’s not the point here), I agree that they often have good points worth discussing.

Nationalist Patriot Integralist Syndicalist Totalitarian Libertarianist when?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 23rd 2019 at 2:11:31 PM

Venezuela is a particular sticking point for older leftists. They really believed in Chavez's experiment. They thought its success would pave the way for socialism to go global. They got emotionally invested. And then it all went to shit.

They can't admit the experiment failed. Their emotional investment won't let them. So what to do?

a) Downplay the problems in Venezuela

b) Claim Maduro isn't a "real" leftist

c) Blame all of Venezuela's problems on foreign "evil" capitalist nations — the USA in particular is a convenient scapegoat given its history with South America.

And if they stick to one of them then I can give them the benefit of the doubt, but they frequently engage in at least two of the three, despite them being mutually contradictory.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 23rd 2019 at 3:08:00 PM

The national guard already started to burn the trucks with aid. And to expulse the Colombian diplomats.

What mental gymnastics would be needed to blame USA for this.

Also, native communities got into.this and the clashes are getting Worse.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 23rd 2019 at 5:41:36 AM

There were at least 4 dead and several wounded in a confrontation with the armed forces in Bolívar. Damn the reds for this...

So when people give them aid, even if it turns out to be completely harmless, they would only destroy it. So much for that.