Marvel Cinematic Universe

You’re not having his conversation with any of those people, so that’s entirely irrelevant.

You’re trying to establish equivalence where there isn’t any, hence the response. I would stick to things that aren’t “people only disagree with me because they hate the show, unlike me, who thinks the things I do because I love it.”

Regardless of where the facts lie, it's a rather blunt attempt to shift the talk away from them and make it about "like/dislike" instead, and like I said it feels like someone has to point that out whenever this subject comes up.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 17th 2019 at 2:36:25 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

The point of the conversation, from what I recall, is that Agents’s model of time travel had no bearing on the writing of time travel in Endgame, so from the movies’s perspective Agents’s ideas don’t matter. A one way street stays one way.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 17th 2019 at 2:38:35 AM

Fine. Love or hate the shows, there are some people who don't see them as part of the MCU. This is silly to me. Of course the shows aren't going to be referenced by the movies — that was never going to happen until the same writers/directors made both the show and the movie (hence why the only reference we got in the movie was the one made by Joss Whedon — and even then, it was only a sly reference, "A friend pulled it out of mothballs," an in-joke for those in the know). Hence why Jarvis was the only character to make the transition — because Markus and McFeely wrote both Agent Carter and Endgame.

But none of that means the shows aren't part of the MCU. Perhaps I'm an eternal optimist, but again, a one-way street is still a street. They are all part of the same universe, no matter if the movies reference the shows or not. Who gives a shit if the Avengers don't reference the fact that Coulson is alive? It doesn't matter to their story. Eventually, AOS stopped referencing the movies, too, and concentrated on their own storylines, which made them all the better.

Once again, this conversation is supremely silly, because time travel is completely arbitrary anyway. And the movie itself violates it, unless you read a specific Word of God (the directors, not the writers), which most audience members didn't.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 17th 2019 at 2:41:50 AM

Honestly, the only reason to watch Iron Fist is so that you understand what's happening in Defenders.

But Defenders is also terrible, so my recommendation is to just skip 'em both.

Once you're asserting that "It's canon, it's just never going to be referenced or acknowledged in any way, it has no bearing on anything whatsoever, and it will be actively contradicted whenever writers feel like it," you've defeated the purpose of canon.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 17th 2019 at 3:49:32 AM

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Not to mention Kevin Feige was an EP of Agent Carter, and Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely were also creators, writers and EP. And Markus and McFeely also contributed to the Captain America trilogy and Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame as screenwriters.

To be fair, I just want to watch something good. I am not really affected by this whole canonicity debate because I don't care too much about that. I just enjoy it. At least some constructive criticism could help.

"Scooby Dooby Doo!"

And Joe Russo directed Agent Carter's second episode.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 17th 2019 at 2:52:52 AM

Thank you for adding to my observation!

Now I think: What's the point of all this? The canonicity... nah, I don't realy mind it.

"Scooby Dooby Doo!"

An issue with the Netlifx shows is the enforced gritty tone they all got.

Sure it fits for others like Jessica Jones but Iron Fist did not need to be dark & gritty.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

The purpose of canon is for pedantic nerds to have arguments. And this isn't me insulting people — I'm a pedantic nerd. But "canonicity" really doesn't matter a whole lot in regard to stories. Look at Doctor Who — Doctor Who has no canon, but it still produces great stories. It just doesn't care if it contradicts past stories, because it cares more about the stories than any canon.

The purpose of canon is to serve as a well for writers to draw from. Canon is like a great lake, with writers drawing water from it to spice up the stories they're creating. These works in turn rain more water down into the lake.

Secondary canons such as Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., expanded universe novels, licensed video games, etc. are like smaller ponds. They draw from the lake through spillways, but they never return anything to it. They're isolated in their own little ponds. You can enjoy them. They're sometimes very good. But they have no effect on the main series and will frequently be ignored or outright contradicted by it, much to the outrage of their fans (especially when the derivative works wind up being better than the primary canon, like Star Wars: The Clone Wars).

The reality is that no matter how many times an EU novel or video game goes "HEY LOOK I SAW THAT MOVIE TOO," it doesn't change the fact that they're not part of the primary canon. The PS 4 Spider-Man game is not part of the comic book universe, Hyrule Warriors is not part of the Legend of Zelda timeline, Knights of the Old Republic is not part of the Star Wars Trilogy of Trilogies, and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is not part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe filmography. They're derivative works.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 17th 2019 at 4:13:16 AM

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Except there is no "secondary canon" in the MCU. There is canon and there is non-canon. And AOS is canon. You have absolutely no evidence otherwise.

After I watched Luke Cage season 1 I skipped right past Defenders since I'd already spoiled it for myself and went to LC season 2. Pour one out for that season's finale, btw.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Oct 17th 2019 at 5:21:48 AM

Self-serious autistic metalhead who goes by any pronouns. (avvie template source)

Luke Cage and Iron Fist's second season finales is why I really hope they continue rather than reboot. I wanna see what happens, damnit.

Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Punisher got to end on relatively "complete" notes at least, Bullseye stinger aside.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Oct 17th 2019 at 8:36:11 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

You mean Bullseye isn't in season 3? ):

No he was. He just didn't die and was hinted to be coming back.

This song needs more love.

I think the issue is that AOS conect more to main canon(the movies) than netflix, the latter live by "each having is own corner" like how Batman and gothica is pretty much is own contain universe who dosent really need the rest of DC to work.

AOS on the other hand, owe the second of first season(the good part) to Hydra takeover and go on for their but the idea they are THIS close end being silly, like Coulson being responsable for fury helicarrier ex machina or Hive try to mutanize the work and the avenger nowhere in sigh.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Maybe it's just because I used to read a lot of fanfic, but when it comes to what's 'true canon' and what's not I genuinely can't bring myself to care. It's all equally fictional anyway.

Something being canon means that all future works in the setting need to treat the events of that work as having happened. If Character A dies in Story 1, and Story 2 is in canon with Story 1, then it can't have Character A appear without bringing them back from the dead somehow (or making the story a prequel, or having it be a dream sequence, etc.)

Do you believe that's a concern for the people making the movies? Or, if one of them wants to use Graviton one day, will they do so without regard for how what AOS established?

I will said they dont plan to ever used graviton ether way.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Yes. For one thing, the movies haven't contradicted anything in the shows, which means there is someone coordinating these things. Even when there seem to be two of the same character — like when Nightshade was on both Black Panther and Luke Cage Season 2 — one of them is changed (the Nightshade in Black Panther was ultimately renamed Linda). Hell, the only time a character has been duplicated was when Tina Minoru had a tiny cameo in Doctor Strange and then showed up in Runaways — but then again, Tina remained nameless in Doctor Strange, so you could easily call her a different character.

In any case, once again: neither the shows nor the movies have contradicted each other. And considering how many movies and how many episodes of shows there are, that means there is definitely someone whose job it is to make no contradictions happen.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 17th 2019 at 7:50:36 AM

If a verse is going to use Time Travel at all, it should at least stick with one form of time travel to avoid confusion.

Then again, the actual Marvel comics weren't any better on this front. At least the MCU hasn't introduced Kang yet.

It doesn't help that Endgame's own directors and writers didn't really agree on how the time travel in the movie worked.

Edited by M84 on Oct 17th 2019 at 11:21:37 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

Time travel combined with alternate universes.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

If they do use Graviton someday, I hope they give him a better motivation than he had in the comics. In the comics, Graviton's whole thing was that he was basically a proto-incel who couldn't think of any other use for his powers than to get laid.

Or worse, alternate universes created by time travel.

Edited by M84 on Oct 17th 2019 at 11:23:29 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

Multiple forms of time travel is fine as along as the different forms have explicit reasons for why they behave differently.

Writing time travel is like writing magic. Magic A is Magic A, so if you're using one form of time travel it must be consistent. But like in stories with different strains of magic, Magic A might not equal Magic B, but Magic B is Magic B, so as long as the other kinds are consistent (and the differences are clear) there shouldn't be a problem.

Like, say, the Time Stone being able to literally rewind time. We could postulate that Strange actually created an alternate universe there. Or we could take it as presented, that he literally just undid something bad that happened. And we can accept it, because he used the Time Stone to do it, and the audience can easily infer that time travel using an almighty universal stone is distinct from time travel made by entirely mortal means.

Likewise for Kang, all they would have to do is say "I come from thousands of years in your future - my temporal technology is far more powerful than yours. I truly can change the past" and that question is answered pretty much right away.

Best Graviton is The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes' Graviton.

"FFFUUUUUUURRRRYYYYY!"

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 17th 2019 at 8:28:02 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Seconded.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!