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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

RainingMetal Since: Jan, 2010
#249526: Jul 19th 2018 at 4:47:32 AM

Alas the true purpose of the Second Amendment is being turned on its head. Now it's Les Collaborateurs who have the most guns.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#249527: Jul 19th 2018 at 6:11:33 AM

Speaking of gun lobbiests, a few days ago, an actual Russian Russian Spy was Indicted for secretly establishing a backchannel to the NRA.

THREAD: What can we learn from today's charges against Russian spy Maria Butina?

1/ Today the DOJ revealed that it charged Maria Butina with conspiracy to act as a Russian agent. Although the criminal complaint sets forth facts that indicate that Butina was a covert agent (e.g. a "spy"), that's not what she was charged with.

2/ She was merely charged with acting on behalf of the Russian government without previously notifying the Attorney General. That is a narrow crime that is easy to prove, which allowed the DOJ to be selective about the evidence it revealed in the criminal complaint.

3/ Most national security cases don't result in charges at all, and those that do rarely result in trials. By charging a narrow crime, the DOJ could protect its sources and methods of gathering intelligence. It is reasonable to presume that they have additional evidence.

4/ As a result of the narrow crime charged, the complaint raises more questions than it answers. But the questions it raises are explosive and significant, because Butina was closely tied to the NRA and worked to establish a secret back channel between the GOP and the Kremlin.

5/ Perhaps the most interesting allegations in the complaint involve statements by U.S. citizens regarding Butina. For example, in paragraph 31, a U.S. person claimed he/she was involved in "securing a VERY private line of communication" between the Kremlin and GOP via the NRA.

6/ Butina began her efforts in 2015, before Trump was the nominee, but continued them throughout his campaign and after his election. For instance, paragraph 46 quotes an email she sent shortly after Trump's inauguration to an organizer of the National Prayer Breakfast.

7/ In the email, Butina referenced the "very private" meeting that followed the breakfast, and claimed she had "important information for you to further this new relationship." If the communications were legitimate, why keep hem "very private"? What was the important information?

8/ As I said earlier, the complaint raises questions like this but does not provide answers. Although the Americans discussed in the complaint engage in very suspicious behavior, the evidence set forth in the complaint doesn't establish that they committed crimes.

9/ But the allegations are serious and raise explosive questions. "Collusion" does not have any legal meaning, but it seems to me that working with a Russian spy to establish a back channel to the Kremlin fits a lot of common definitions of what "collusion" is.

10/ The complaint *should* have a significant impact on our public debate about collusion and the Mueller investigation, but it appears likely that Trump and his allies will criticize Mueller and the DOJ and ignore the significant allegations in the complaint.

11/ It's worth noting that this complaint was not brought by Mueller but rather by another component of the DOJ. It is not clear why, but it could be because Mueller's team is already busy with other charges and investigations.

12/ The biggest question raised by this complaint is what additional evidence there is regarding the Americans who worked with Butina. We now know why the NRA has hired criminal defense counsel, and I suspect everyone referred to in the complaint also has counsel.

13/ At the very least, all of them are witnesses, but it appears some have potential criminal exposure depending on their state of mind. The snippets in the complaint are nowhere near enough to establish a criminal case, but they suggest there may be more evidence.

14/ We could see very significant charges from this investigation if it is allowed to continue. Unfortunately that is an open question at this point. /end

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 19th 2018 at 9:12:28 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#249528: Jul 19th 2018 at 7:40:19 AM

The Summit with Russia was a great success, except with the real enemy of the people, the Fake News Media. I look forward to our second meeting so that we can start implementing some of the many things discussed, including stopping terrorism, security for Israel, nuclear............proliferation, cyber attacks, trade, Ukraine, Middle East peace, North Korea and more. There are many answers, some easy and some hard, to these problems...but they can ALL be solved!

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 19th 2018 at 10:44:33 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#249530: Jul 19th 2018 at 8:24:39 AM

I figured out what that was about I think.

     From the Start, Trump Has Muddied a Clear Message: Putin Interfered 
WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

Mr. Trump sounded grudgingly convinced, according to several people who attended the intelligence briefing. But ever since, Mr. Trump has tried to cloud the very clear findings that he received on Jan. 6, 2017, which his own intelligence leaders have unanimously endorsed.

The shifting narrative underscores the degree to which Mr. Trump regularly picks and chooses intelligence to suit his political purposes. That has never been more clear than this week.

On Monday, standing next to the Russian president in Helsinki, Finland, Mr. Trump said he accepted Mr. Putin’s denial of Russian election intrusions. By Tuesday, faced with a bipartisan political outcry, Mr. Trump sought to walk back his words and sided with his intelligence agencies.

On Wednesday, when a reporter asked, “Is Russia still targeting the U.S.?” Mr. Trump shot back, “No” — directly contradicting statements made only days earlier by his director of national intelligence, Dan Coats, who was sitting a few chairs away in the Cabinet Room. (The White House later said he was responding to a different question.)

Hours later, in a CBS News interview, Mr. Trump seemed to reverse course again. He blamed Mr. Putin personally, but only indirectly, for the election interference by Russia, “because he’s in charge of the country.”

In the run-up to this week’s ducking and weaving, Mr. Trump has done all he can to suggest other possible explanations for the hacks into the American political system. His fear, according to one of his closest aides who spoke on the condition of anonymity, is that any admission of even an unsuccessful Russian attempt to influence the 2016 vote raises questions about the legitimacy of his presidency.

The Jan. 6, 2017, meeting, held at Trump Tower, was a prime example. He was briefed that day by John O. Brennan, the C.I.A. director; James R. Clapper Jr., the director of national intelligence; and Adm. Michael S. Rogers, the director of the National Security Agency and the commander of United States Cyber Command.

The F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, was also there; after the formal briefing, he privately told Mr. Trump about the “Steele dossier.” That report, by a former British intelligence officer, included uncorroborated salacious stories of Mr. Trump’s activities during a visit to Moscow, which he denied.

According to nearly a dozen people who either attended the meeting with the president-elect or were later briefed on it, the four primary intelligence officials described the streams of intelligence that convinced them of Mr. Putin’s role in the election interference.

They included stolen emails from the Democratic National Committee that had been seen in Russian military intelligence networks by the British, Dutch and American intelligence services. Officers of the Russian intelligence agency formerly known as the G.R.U. had plotted with groups like Wiki Leaks on how to release the email stash.

And ultimately, several human sources had confirmed Mr. Putin’s own role.

That included one particularly valuable source, who was considered so sensitive that Mr. Brennan had declined to refer to it in any way in the Presidential Daily Brief during the final months of the Obama administration, as the Russia investigation intensified.

Instead, to keep the information from being shared widely, Mr. Brennan sent reports from the source to Mr. Obama and a small group of top national security aides in a separate, white envelope to assure its security.

Mr. Trump and his aides were also given other reasons during the briefing to believe that Russia was behind the D.N.C. hacks.

The same Russian groups had been involved in cyberattacks on the State Department and White House unclassified email systems in 2014 and 2015, and in an attack on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They had aggressively fought the N.S.A. against being ejected from the White House system, engaging in what the deputy director of the agency later called “hand-to-hand combat” to dig in.

The pattern of the D.N.C. hacks, and the theft of emails from John D. Podesta, Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, fit the same pattern.

After the briefings, Mr. Trump issued a statement later that day that sought to spread the blame for the meddling. He said “Russia, China and other countries, outside groups and countries” were launching cyberattacks against American government, businesses and political organizations — including the D.N.C.

Still, Mr. Trump said in his statement, “there was absolutely no effect on the outcome of the election.”

Mr. Brennan later told Congress that he had no doubt where the attacks were coming from.

“I was convinced in the summer that the Russians were trying to interfere in the election,” he said in testimony in May 2017. “And they were very aggressive.”

For Mr. Trump, the messengers were as much a part of the problem as the message they delivered.

Mr. Brennan and Mr. Clapper were both Obama administration appointees who left the government the day Mr. Trump was inaugurated. The new president soon took to portraying them as political hacks who had warped the intelligence to provide Democrats with an excuse for Mrs. Clinton’s loss in the election.

Mr. Comey fared little better. He was fired in May 2017 after refusing to pledge his loyalty to Mr. Trump and pushing forward on the federal investigation into whether the Trump campaign had cooperated with Russia’s election interference.

Only Admiral Rogers, who retired this past May, was extended in office by Mr. Trump. (He, too, told Congress that he thought the evidence of Russian interference was incontrovertible.)

And the evidence suggests Russia continues to be very aggressive in its meddling.

In March, the Department of Homeland Security declared that Russia was targeting the American electric power grid, continuing to riddle it with malware that could be used to manipulate or shut down critical control systems. Intelligence officials have described it to Congress as a chief threat to American security.

Just last week, Mr. Coats said that current cyberthreats were “blinking red” and called Russia the “most aggressive foreign actor, no question.”

“And they continue their efforts to undermine our democracy,” he said.

Christopher A. Wray, the F.B.I. director, also stood firm.

“The intelligence community’s assessment has not changed,” Mr. Wray said on Wednesday at the Aspen Security Forum. “My view has not changed, which is that Russia attempted to interfere with the last election and continues to engage in malign influence operations to this day.”

The Russian efforts are “aimed at sowing discord and divisiveness in this country,” he continued. “We haven’t yet seen an effort to target specific election infrastructure this time. We could be just a moment away from the next level.”

“It’s a threat we need to take extremely seriously and respond to with fierce determination and focus.”

Almost as soon as he took office, Mr. Trump began casting doubts on the intelligence on Russia’s election interference, though never taking issue with its specifics.

He dismissed it broadly as a fabrication by Democrats and part of a “witch hunt” against him. He raised unrelated issues, including the state of investigations into Mrs. Clinton’s home computer server, to distract attention from the central question of Russia’s role — and who, if anyone, in Mr. Trump’s immediate orbit may have worked with them.

In July 2017, just after meeting Mr. Putin for the first time, Mr. Trump told a New York Times reporter that the Russian president had made a persuasive case that Moscow’s cyberskills were so good that the government’s hackers would never have been caught. Therefore, Mr. Trump recounted from his conversation with Mr. Putin, Russia must not have been responsible.

Since then, Mr. Trump has routinely disparaged the intelligence about the Russian election interference. Under public pressure — as he was after his statements in Helsinki on Monday — he has periodically retreated. But even then, he has expressed confidence in his intelligence briefers, not in the content of their findings.

That is what happened again this week, twice.

Mr. Trump’s statement in Helsinki led Mr. Coats to reaffirm, in a statement he deliberately did not get cleared at the White House, that American intelligence agencies had no doubt that Russia was behind the 2016 hack.

That contributed to Mr. Trump’s decision on Tuesday to say that he had misspoken one word, and that he did believe Russia had interfered — although he also veered off script to declare: “Could be other people also. A lot of people out there.”

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 19th 2018 at 11:40:55 AM

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#249531: Jul 19th 2018 at 8:25:18 AM

[up]x3 I guess you've got to include your beloved Fox News in with the "fake news" media then, since even some of them were criticizing the summit.

Edited by speedyboris on Jul 19th 2018 at 10:26:35 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#249532: Jul 19th 2018 at 8:26:16 AM

[up][up]This is the third time someone has posted this article in the last few pages.

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#249533: Jul 19th 2018 at 8:33:30 AM

Could we put these long quoteblocks inside folders?

[up][up] The most toothless criticisms possible, mind you. The rebuke the Republicans delivered was about as timid as it gets, revealing the depths of their self-serving cowardice. “You’re a traitor, but it’s okay as long as you sign our legislation” basically.

They should have sent a poet.
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#249534: Jul 19th 2018 at 8:53:40 AM

He might be a traitor. But he is our traitor

Inter arma enim silent leges
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#249535: Jul 19th 2018 at 9:03:58 AM

This stuck out to me.

His fear, according to one of his closest aides who spoke on the condition of anonymity, is that any admission of even an unsuccessful Russian attempt to influence the 2016 vote raises questions about the legitimacy of his presidency.

It looks like they are finally figuring out what we knew months ago.

Take Russia/Putin. If Trump were to acknowledge Russia interfered, he'd be admitting he was less worthy of the presidency.

Donald Trump would literally sell out his entire family and the country as well to avoid acknowledging that he didn't deserve the office

He is pathologically incapable of doing anything which admits to the world his worst internal fear: he's unworthy of being seen as special

Now, he has no choice on how he has to play this. He HAS to actually make Putin look worthy of partnership. He has to make the shameful thing, look unshameful somehow. He has to make shameful hacking and potential collusion somehow seem smart or purposeful or dignified.

It cannot be done. It makes no logical sense. It will fall apart and as it does, Trump's behavior and lying will get more outlandish.

But make no mistake, Donald Trump is clinically incapable of doing anything other than what he is doing: trying to avoid the shame of being discovered to be illegitimate and unworthy of public respect.

He has an uncontrollable compulsion to avoid that awful truth.

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#249536: Jul 19th 2018 at 10:46:21 AM

Also it seems the GOP voted unanimously to block an attempt to restore funding for election security measures.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#249537: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:10:17 AM

[up] Realllly hope enough people vote to offset this.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#249538: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:14:16 AM

[up]Agreed, thankfully there's some strong evidence for a Blue Wave so this shouldn't be something people freak out about or declare DOOM. Still all the same it's worrying and infuriating.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Izeinsummer Since: Jan, 2015
#249539: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:24:05 AM

[up][up]... how, exactly, is "enough people" going to help if the count is fucked? The US does not even do proper exit polls, and when the ones you do do are off, you just ignore it. The 2016 exit polls stank to high heaven, and nobody said boo-beeb about it.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#249540: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:25:20 AM

[up]I see no evidence that the Russian interference can overcome a wave, it was so devastating in 2016 because of how close it was and the midterms are not likely to be the same.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#249541: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:32:54 AM

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/19/michael-mcfaul-trump-russia-question-732356

In exchange for allowing the special counsel to interview the 12 indicted Russians, Putin wants Trump to hand over financier Bill Browder, who is one of the people responsible for the Magnitsky Act, and former US ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul. Trump actually called this an "incredible offer".

You gotta be shitting me.

Edited by danime91 on Jul 19th 2018 at 11:34:39 AM

Izeinsummer Since: Jan, 2015
#249542: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:33:35 AM

Okay, I am all for voting. But voting if you do not do anything to verify the integrity of the count means nothing. Seriously, 2016 had states report exit poll totals over ten percent lower for Trump than the official count. That is statistically the next thing to impossible absent egregious fraud. "We will vote harder than they can cheat" is not a viable plan! You need to do something about the cheating.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#249543: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:37:31 AM

Apparently we just tried and it got shot down by the Republicans.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#249544: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:40:44 AM

[up][up]You have yet to give evidence for cheating or that it could overcome a wave, typical methods of voter suppression and gerrymandering can be overcome through sufficient voting in that they rely on overcoming slight leads. I see no reason to believe that Russian interference can stop a wave.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 19th 2018 at 2:41:16 PM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#249545: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:42:29 AM

[up][up][up][up] You know, in a vacuum it makes sense. Interview 12 Russians we think committed a crime, they interview 11 people the Russians think committed a crime.

If only Russia wasn't so, you know, assassination-happy and an oligarchy it almost seems reasonable.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jul 19th 2018 at 2:42:09 PM

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#249546: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:43:28 AM

Another evaluation of Trump's behavior towards Putin. It includes gems like these:

Today, there should be no question that Russia poses a threat to American democracy and security. The only question is what American leaders are going to do about it. Even Trump’s own intelligence-agency heads have made clear, despite intense political pressure from the president to soft pedal and back pedal, that they concur with the assessment of their agencies and that Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation is not the “witch hunt” the president claims. Just hours after Trump’s summit remarks, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats came out of the shadows to release an unusual public statement. It pushed back, hard: “We have been clear in our assessments of Russian meddling in the 2016 election and their ongoing, pervasive efforts to undermine our democracy,” Coats said.

The scariest part of Coats’s statement—other than the fact that he had to issue it in the first place because his boss is sympathizing with the enemy—is the word ongoing. The Russians have never left. We are at war. But only the enemy is fighting.

...

On Tuesday, Senate leaders on both sides of the aisle vowed to get serious. They’ve been meeting to secure bipartisan support for big, bold action—which consists of a sense of the Senate resolution reaffirming support for U.S. intelligence assessments about Russia. Because nothing says Cut it out, Putin, or you’ll be sorry like a nonbinding sense of the Senate resolution.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Izeinsummer Since: Jan, 2015
#249547: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:45:29 AM

.. Because outright fraud uncouples the result entirely from what people vote in the booth? Evidence - Every banana republic ever.

Sure, enough discrepancy becomes obvious.. but that assumes that discrepancy is either truly enormous or reported on. And the press was entirely mum about the stinky results last time, so..

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#249548: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:49:37 AM

Michael Scheuer, the former senior CIA official and NYT bestselling author of Imperial Hubris, is calling for Trump supporters to kill Trump opponents

The comment section of the original article, surprisingly, is going all out for hte author and calling out the moron he is for writing that bullshit and remarking how the text qualifies as incitement.

Edited by AngelusNox on Jul 19th 2018 at 3:54:14 PM

Inter arma enim silent leges
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#249550: Jul 19th 2018 at 11:53:45 AM

This thread moves too damn fast!

Inter arma enim silent leges

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