Clear Up Definition and Correct Misuse: Urban Fantasy

99% of what I've seen of it is from the current arc because that's what people seem to over post. That bit doesn't seem very urban fantasy. No idea about the other bits.

Maybe WWI for a cut off? That's really about where things stop being gas light and really become modern.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

The current arc (which is plain ol' Trapped in Another World fantasy) has become half of the manga, but everything before it was set in a modern city/school.

WWI seems to be a good cut-point.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:53:06 PM by Heatth

Well, the late 19th century was pretty urban and industrialized in places, but the point is that in modern fantasy fiction, the 1890s aren't treated the same way as the 1990s.

Also, I wouldn't call gaslamp fantasy the same thing as Steampunk. Basically, gaslamp fantasy is to Steampunk as Urban Fantasy is to Urban Sci Fi. There's overlap and grey area, sure, but "1800s with more advanced technology" is different from "1800s with magic". But I digress.

ETA: Gosh, I am too slow for this discussion. WWI sounds like a good cutoff to me.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:55:51 PM by bluepenguin

So we'll cut at WWI then. That cuts off the Victorian age with it's Steampunk and Gaslight fantasy nicely. They really are distinct enough to not quite fit. And I agree, Gaslight Fantasy vs. Steampunk is about the same sci-fi fantasy split, but neither of them are treated the same as their respective genres as post WWI.

edited 21st Jun '11 9:56:42 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Thats a good point for a cut off.

The first half of the manga was pretty much standard school setting with magic (keeping the secret is a must) Even got the standard school trip to Kyoto like every other school anime (K On) does. Entire chapters dedicated to shopping look at the shirts., a Internet Idol and other things. they just build and build on the fantasy elements. 190 chapters into the series though it shifts to a High Fantasy world that's about as High Fantasy as you can get (with 0 electricity as said Internet Idol found out the hard way.)

"Gas Light Fantasy" surprised we don't have a trope already for that...

What about Borderline cases though like Shadow Hearts? Set two years before WW 1 and very fantasy (Shadow Hearts Covenant though is set during WW 1.)

edited 21st Jun '11 10:02:34 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Borderline cases are generally lumped with whatever fits them best. Covenant hits the WWI mark so it's clearly Urban Fantasy, and I'd say from playing the first one that it's more Urban than Gaslight. That series as a whole is more modern and less Gaslight.

Well, maybe not Koudelka. I never played that one so I can't say. It might be Gaslight.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:06:31 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

There should be another cut-off, shouldn't it? After all, a full futuristic setting with magic is pretty different. 20 Minutes into the Future is the obvious second cut-off.

Yeah, it can't be too far future. That's a different trope entirely. Shadowrun is not the same setting as The Dresden Files.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Another question on a completely different direction what Magic Realism vs this the line seems so damn blurry.

Where would you place Bakemonogatari or Magical Girl series like Madoka Magica?

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Magical Realism is everything is normal, but there's maybe one ghost. Or one supernatural thing. Once you have a magical society or more than one or two people with powers (maybe one family) you're into Urban Fantasy. Nothing in Magical Realism is explicitly magical and it's often fuzzy if it's actually magic or if the character is just crazy.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:15:46 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Urban Fantasy. But there is some thin line over there. There is at last a few works being listed as both Magic Realism and Magic Realism, despite Magic Realism starting off saying it is not Urban Fantasy.

Magic Realism needs some clean up, then.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:15:42 PM by Heatth

Ah, I found the trope for Hunter X Hunter. It's Mundane Fantastic. That's the trope for modern setting with openly magical elements. I knew it wasn't Urban Fantasy.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Magical Realism actually explains the differences between the three very well. This should probably be on each of the pages:

Rule of thumb: Say there's vampires in New York.

• If the cover gets blown and the protagonists spend a lot of time with vampires, either taking evil ones down, incorporating them into romance stories, etc. it's Urban Fantasy.
• If for example a cop's partner is very pale, acts in a generally odd way, and come to think of it, he's never been seen in daylight, but the story focuses primarily on just the relationship between the cop and his partner or something equally mundane, it's Magical Realism.
• If the cop just goes through his life as a cop, but his partner is a vampire, is greeted with "Hi, Mr. vampire!" by cheerful little children in the street, and casually drinks blood in plain sight out of transfusion packs during coffee breaks, it's a case of Mundane Fantastic.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Oh now thats a messy trope and extremely messy line.... Bakemonogatari would probably fall under that although really not sure.

We need a Modern Fantasy Super-Trope to all three.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:24:47 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Actually it is not. You could say this trope describe the "like real world, but with monsters" part of the work. However, the actual supernatural powers the main characters use (that are magic in all but name) is anything but 'mundane'.

Regardless, this trope is very instructive, thanks.

Bakemonogatari is not Mundane Fantastic either. It is Urban Fantasy. The story revolves all around the fantasy elements.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:24:21 PM by Heatth

It's not so much that magic is mundane, as that in universe, it's not unheard of for people to have magic. It's someone everyone knows about and takes for granted. I can't put my foot behind my head, but if I saw someone do it, I wouldn't think they were breaking the laws of the universe.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

So:

• Urban Fantasy: Set on earth between about WWI and 20 Minutes into the Future. Focuses on magical elements that aren't really known to exist or aren't accepted my normally people
• Magical Realism: Modern setting. There are hints that magic exists, but no one really knows about it and the story is never clear about if it's really magic or not.
• Mundane Fantastic: Modern setting. Magic exists. People know about it. It's not treated as a big shock or surprise. It's just part of life. Everyone may not be able to do it, but those who can are openly known to exist.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:27:55 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

The thing is, the "magic" of Hunter X Hunter is not taken for granted. Most people (including the main characters) do freak out when they discover there is some super natural shit going around. There is no Masquerade as in no one is trying to keep it hidden. But no one is trying to keep it open either. It is like a 'underground knowledge' If you try to look for it you will discover, but most people just keep their lives without ever thinking about it.

Compare with Kung-fu movies. There is no ancient conspiracy keeping kung-fu artists hidden. This don't stop the random goons to be shocked when they see someone kicking ass of an army of armed people bare-handed.

Seems fine to me.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:37:07 PM by Heatth

So yeah Bakemonogatari would be Mundane Fantastic? or both? really it has elements of both....

Probably spoilers:

Senjogahara lost her weight and ended up talking to Araragi (former vampire) is shocked when doesn't seem to mind being stapled (in the cheek... long story you will have to watch it) and it heals. She asks whats his deal and he wants to help her so he takes him to see Meme who isn't surprised that she is haunted by a crab who stole all the weight (emotional and physical) and even says she went to a couple of quacks who failed Meme even charges her for the service.

Then later Nadeko is cursed by a girl and a guy they think the whole thing is fake and just did it as something to vent their anger on. They dont know it was a real curse that would try and kill its victim.

All the characters believe the stuff around them because bad things have already happened to the previously before they were shown in the show.

"underground knowledge" seems to describe Bakemonogatari as well.

edited 21st Jun '11 10:41:27 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Eh, still haven't seen it. I'm just going by what's on the page which seems to indicate that the supernatural is openly known. That doesn't mean it's not scary when it shows up. It's treated more or less like guns are. People know that guns exist. They know they're dangerous. So if someone pulls a gun and starts shooting, people freak out. Mundane in this sense doesn't mean that everyone is used to it as much as it's a normal part of the world.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I don't think Mundane Fantastic and Urban Fantasy are mutually exclusive. Or even that one is subtrope of the other. Urban Fantasy is a subgenre, while Mundane Fantastic is not. Mundane Fantastic is about fantastics elements that are taken for granted for the setting and not too much explained or paid attention in. Urban Fantasy is a genre (fantasy) in a specific setting. Bakemonogatari is both.

As I said, it is not common knowledge. Most people do not know Nen (the name of the 'magic power') exist. They do think it is a violation of physics someone may be able to take a shot and not die. However, nothing of this is secret either (it helps Nen is Invisible to Normals).

Also, reading carefully, Mundane Fantastic is not what you seem to think it is, Shima. Even if it is openly known and taken for granted, if a supernatural happening is treated as supernatural happening, it is not this trope, even if it is common knowledge. For example, magic is not Mundane Fantastic in Lord Of The Rings, even if everyone knows magic exist in there.

edited 22nd Jun '11 8:36:18 AM by Heatth

Ok my head is starting to hurt lol.

So we want to remove Urban Fantasy from the list of tropes like it because its a Genre instead?

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I'm not happy with this. For one thing, we haven't addressed why it's called Urban Fantasy.

Heath said "Strictly speaking, a fantasy story setting in a modern times country side wouldn't be Urban Fantasy either, which is quite silly." which I think is rubbish. What would be silly is somebody calling something Urban, talking at first about works which were all in an urban environment and saying Urban and somehow not thinking the city setting was important.

In fact this came up before when a thread about Magic Realism was brought up*

. I think we actually got an angreement on this point: "Urban" is important because the nature of a work and how the magic is going to interact with the setting is affected by the population density and technology and levels of social intricacy. It is the juxtaposition of our complex modern technological society with the fantastic elements. So maybe it could happen in the suburbs but when it's happening in the countryside, you have a more isolated setting with more of a connection with nature.

Also, I appreciate worrying about misplaced Victorian England examples but...hmm...only read about these sorts of books, not actually read them, I'd think they are a sub-genre. Distinct but born out of Urban Fantasy, don't worry about excluding them, just make sure we have a Gaslamp Fantasy page. I mean what would one call Neil Gaiman's Sherlock Holmes fan fic, A Study In Emerald?

I tossed up a YKTTW for Gaslamp Fantasy earlier, and I promise not to derail this thread in that direction anymore.

I'd suggest that Urban Fantasy, when we really talk about it, has to be set in a world whose non-fantasy elements are close enough to our own that it wouldn't be considered genre fiction without the fantasy elements. (And even then, the fantasy elements must not be too prominent or it is Mundane Fantastic or Magi Tech instead.)

Pokemon actually passes the first test (but is then Mundane Fantastic); Pokemon without the magic would just be our world with different names.

Indiana Jones would fail the first test even though it would fit lot of proposed definitions.

edited 22nd Jun '11 6:59:04 AM by arromdee