Split, new category?: Eagleland

This article is getting pretty long, it's been soft-split but the two sides of the trope really describe two nearly opposite views of America, the major similarity being that Type 2 Eaglelanders all seem to believe they ARE Type 1 (which sort of makes Type 2 a subversion of Type 1). The way potholes work, unless it's explicitly stated what type they're supposed to be it easily ends up being confusing which side of the fence the work is being said to portray unless you're familiar with the work in question.

I know there can be mixed versions of this trope where aspects of Type 1 and 2 are both present, but really that's more of a play on both tropes and your expectations of them. I think it could use a split and maybe even make an America In Media category? There's a lot of 'subtropes' listed that really don't seem like -real- subtropes, aside from being specific to an American setting.

This indeed seems like two tropes that ought to be split. (There at one point was a third section that got cut.) The name also may be a problem, since many examples are characters rather than settings.

If this does get split, we'd probably have to make up a new name for the 'negative' viewpoint of America, since most potholes to Eagleland are Type 1, and that may or may not cause isues. It may not, since we also have the option of making a "Sliding scale" page for it, such as the one for Anti-Hero; it's not part of the actual page for Anti-Hero, but many people point out what type it is, leading to the subpage, which is potholed on the "main" page. It is somewhat confusing, but if enough arguments are made towards the Sliding Scale idea then it is a viable option.

America Sucks?

edited 29th Apr '11 8:37:49 PM by DrStarky

I guess that would work. However, being the sidekick to Captain Patriotic, I'm not going to be much help. All I can say is that America Sucks seems to be the nicest way of saying it.

I think it's fine as a soft split.

Although I wonder who replace the type 2 image.

This is, what, the fifth time this has been suggested? Anyway, support for what it's worth.

I'd suggest Ugly Americans for type 2. There is the problem that it's a work name, but it's also an existing term that seems to describe exactly what type 2 is.

But America Sucks is descriptive and has no overlap with a work.

I still think it's better as a soft split. It's a YMMV kind of trope. Sometimes the same work will reference both ideas with the same reference.

It might work fine as a soft split in theory, but when you open up all the folders, the page is enormous. Either we go the way of the splitter or it just keeps getting bigger and bigger until it starts messing with something technical. After all, America is one of the planet's superpowers (for now, anyway), it's bound to show up in more and more works as time goes on.

That's why we have folders.

The trope itself isn't that large. It just has a large example list. Tsundere has a larger example list and we still have it soft split. Even after we had to move the examples to their own pages.

I say we just move each of the example sections (type 1, type 2, mixed) to their own subpages. No need to create an entirely new trope page.

Also, it doesn't matter if type 2 Eaglelanders think that they're type 1, this page is about how people who don't live in the US view people in the US as portray them, as clearly stated in the first line of the page.

Well I think we should change the picture from Example 2. That photo was taken from Armed America: Portaits of Gun Owners. The people were posed like that, it wasn't "natural".

Ehh???

What happened to the old picture of a fat American tourist slob eating a hamburger?

edited 17th Jun '11 7:13:15 AM by Sackett

That just seems like you're splitting a trope but naming them both the same thing. Again, these are nearly -exactly- opposite portrayals. It's like having Good Is Not Dumb and Good Is Dumb on the same page, soft split. The same -huge- page.

The first one's not natural, either.

I don't think they need to be natural, but the slob was better at depicting flavor 2.

Giving this a bump, I think it got knocked off the first page when there was a flood of topics tossed up a month back or so, a lot of stuff I was watching got knocked off like that. The major reason I have an issue with this page is that Type 1 and Type 2 portrayals are so very much opposite each other. They really -should- be different tropes.

Still opposed to a hard split.

For the same reasons as stated at the beginning of this thread.

I think we probably need a crowner. I'm actually not sure how to do that, or even if I personally am able to do that.

Edit: Sackett, All you said was that you felt it was YMMV (it isn't, it's about specific portrayals), and that it isn't too long (it IS long, there are longer pages true, but that doesn't mean this page -isn't- long) and my -major- point is that there are really two different tropes here. This one you seem to be trying to counter by saying that they both can appear in the same works, but that's not a reason for them not to be separate tropes: Police Are Useless and I Fought the Law and the Law Won are almost opposite portrayals of police but can still appear in the same work.

edited 9th Jul '11 11:35:45 AM by savage

If we split it into multiple articles, what would we do with the "multiple flavors" section? I don't think it's enough of a trope to give it its own article, yet it's too large to be listed separately, and it's important to have it somewhere.

I don't think it needs a split. The trope is the discrepancy between the two views. Both have to be defined in order to describe the trope.

Almost any split will lead to misuse; it needs to be named in a way which won't lead non-Americans to say something like "In America they don't even have decent health care. America Sucks!"

edited 24th Jul '11 8:38:46 AM by arromdee

Agreed with Stubby Penguin in moving each of the example sections (type 1, type 2, mixed) to their own subpages.

@ Dr Starky: No. Just...No. That is just screaming misuse. We already have problems with Misplaced Nationalism with this as-is. Agreed with arromdee on that.

edited 26th Jul '11 3:36:07 AM by Gundamforce