Ghost In The Shell

Didn't see a general thread. I saw an IJBM styled thread, but not a general. So here we go.

Just saw the 1995 film. It was... Awesome, but the animation was either dated in my eyes, or extremely lazy for a feature film (Whereas when characters talk, it's a stillframe with flapping lips, where in Akira, characters are moving and talking at the same time, possibly Milking the Giant Cow, though in Akira's case, it's a good thing).

Should I just skip on over to Stand Alone Complex?

Stand Alone Complex is very good, and much better than the movie. I'd certainly recommend it.

And it's not really a skipping thing, the movies and SAC are in different continuities, I think.

Though I've also heard that the second movie is much better.

It certainly LOOKS better :>

The second movie's animation blends cel animation and CGI...it does look better than the original, but it's a direct sequel and there are visual notes and references that you won't get if you don't watch the original.

I love the entire GITS franchise...I've got all the mangas, both seasons of SAC + Solid State Society, and both of the original movies. I'd recommend any of them in a heartbeat, although Man-Machine Interface can be a chore to get through.

Ok, here''s how I break down the GITS franchise:

The Manga: Here's the thing with Shirow Masamune, as I've heard it put by many commentators- he's a great idea man, but his execution is really lacking. That about sums up the manga for me: tons of interesting ideas and concepts, but none of them fully realized as they should; it's like Shirow just vomited up all the crazy shit in his brain onto the page in manga form without really doing anything cohesive with it. And that's just the first manga, don't even get me started on "Man-Machine Interface"; incomprehensible clusterfuck does not even begin to describe it. Overall, check it out if you're curious to see where the anime and movies came from, but otherwise you needn't pay much attention to it.

The Movies: Visually gorgeous and occasionally thought-provoking, but utterly lacking in every other respect. Oshii did a good job in focusing Shirow's ideas and weaning out what didn't work or was unnecessary, but in the process stripped all humor and humanity from it. The characters in his GITS movies barely even qualify to be called such; they're nothing more than talking heads spouting either exposition or philosophical musings (something present to some degree in most of his movies, but never more universally and constantly than here). In other words, the movie's a bore fest for most of it's running time, despite the cool action scenes: it's only 90 minutes long, but feels so much longer. Not to mention that it adapts only the very last section of the manga with none of the lead up; the first time I watched it I felt as if I was missing a whole chunk of story, and of course I was. Anyway, I suppose they're worth watching for the visuals, and due to they're immense influence on Western works and perception of anime, but Oshii made better films both before and after this *cough*Patlabor2*cough*

The Anime: Stand Alone Complex is the pinnacle of the GITS franchise, one of the best anime ever made, one of the best animated shows ever made, and just one of the best television shows ever made (I really like it, in case you couldn't tell). There's some pacing problems in the first season as regards to stand alone vs. arc episodes, but 2nd Gig is absolutely perfect: I literally have nothing bad I can say about it. It takes all the best things about the movies and manga, keeps what works, and throws out what doesn't; Adaptaion Distllation at its best. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Oh, and it's got a Yoko Kanno soundtrack that does for rock and electronic what Cowboy Bebop's OST did for jazz and blues, and is arguably just as good if not better than that soundtrack. And one of the best English dubs ever made to boot. So yeah, everybody should watch it.

edited 15th Apr '11 10:10:26 AM by rbx5

My problem with the first seasons of Stand Alone Complex wasn't pacing so much as the fact that the entire driving conflict was sort of lacking. The "villain" was lame as hell, and there wasn't a whole lot else going on in terms of character development or worldbuilding, so it was just sorta... meh. Ironically, the stand alone episodes (with their own self-contained conflicts and resolutions) were much better than the complex (part of the larger story) episodes. The second seasons was an improvement in almost every way, however. The driving conflict was much more satisfying, the "villain" was way better, and there was a lot more focus on the supporting characters. (The episodes with the sniper's backstory and the one with the body-double guy were both ridiculously awesome.)

I loathe Kusinagi for being Canon Sue as hell, though. She's pretty much better than everyone else at everything, forever. Bleh.

I actually preferred the first season for the fact that it lacks a villain for most of the episodes, the problems I had with the second season was the villain and his interaction with the "heroes". And yeah the major is to me the least interesting character because she's just that good at everything.Lance(Togusa) is my favourite of the main characters. Also I have to agree that the manga is pretty badly executed

The major is interesting sometimes when she isn't in Action Girl mode other than that yeah.

Timely, just came here to ask if we had a Ghost in the Shell thread. Just finished rewatching the first season, and about to start on the second (got about two thirds of the way through the second Gig last year, but stopped due to real life getting in the way).

I would pretty much agree with what people here have to say. I wouldn’t say the manga was quite that bad, but of the three continuities it was certainly the weakest, and mostly interesting for the ideas offered and seeing what was taken, and what was changed.

The movies, as movies are lacking, especially the second. The first at least mostly has an appreciable straight narrative, striking visuals, well done action scenes, and some semblance of pacing. However, as has been mentioned there’s very little characterisation of any of the characters, and a tendency towards ‘talking heads’ syndrome. The second film is easily the most intelligent animated film I’ve seen. Yet it takes all the problems of the previous movie to extremes. There’s almost literally no characterisation, nothing even approaching pacing, and three quarters of the run time is dedicated to sitting around discussing its ideas, or overwrought symbolism.

The series, as has been said is easily the best part of the continuity. Mostly because the series format is best suited to what they want to achieve. All the characters have strong voices, and especially in the 2nd Gig attempts paid to explore them as individuals. They offer compelling villains, with interesting motivations (personally I’d argue that they represent the central protagonist in each Gig, but that’s neither here nor there). Great soundtrack. And the ideas the various continuities are centred on get explored in a far more natural way. Not to say the dialog doesn’t get occasionally stilted, but compared to the others it’s the most natural thing in the world.

I’m curious. How’s the movie they did following continuity wise the 2nd Gig? Going to pick it up on blu-ray when I can, but it seems sold out everywhere. Hell Amazon is telling me they don’t have it in stock. Also, are there any rumours of what’s next for the Ghost in the Shell series? (any continuity)

I give SAC a 5/10.

^^I include Solid State Society with SAC in my mind, which is why I didn't mention it in my first post; it's basically a retelling of the Puppet Master story, the Major's leaving Section 9 and Batou's search for her from Oshii's films (with some new elements) set in the SAC continuity. Basically, it does what the Oshii films did, but significantly better, and with an Animation Bump from the TV show. Definitely worth your time. And there have been rumors of a future "3rd Gig", but nothing definite as of now; apparently there are people who want to do it, so it may happen eventually, hopefully.

edited 17th Apr '11 8:04:46 AM by rbx5

I wouldn't call it a retelling. It certainly takes elements from it, but the actual plot is entirely different. I just watched it recently; it was quite good.

As for a third season, apparently Production IG announced that "something" would be getting a long-awaited sequel next year. Doesn't necessarily mean we're getting another season, but it's certainly a possibility.

edited 17th Apr '11 8:32:18 AM by Nyktos

I'm a few episodes away from finishing 2nd Gig. It's weird, in some ways I'd say it's one of the greatest anime series out there, but I don't feel as "warmly" to it as some others, and that's probably the show's intention.

I like the (somewhat unique in anime) team of adult protagonists and their interactions with each other. From what I've read of the ending of 2nd Gig, sounds like as in the first season, there's some snatching defeat from the jaws of victory- the villain is defeated, but nothing really changes or gets better.

Something I noted under Chatterbox at one point- I found it hilarious that the source of Kuze's financial resources is him pulling the same scheme from Superman 3 and Office Space.

edited 17th Apr '11 9:27:27 AM by Jordan

Yeh, I thought of Office Space the second his plan was mentioned.

How much of the characterization in Stand Alone Complex is based on the manga?

Visually, I liked the second movie. In general, I liked the first one. I could not wrap my head around the plot of the second film.

I was OK with the 'Sex dolls go mad and kill high ranking people, thus making the government investigate' but once it got into the submarine base, the dolls going berserk in the final scenes and the whole introduction of the major I mean.

WHO was the enemy? WHY did all the dolls go mad in the second film? Why did Batu go visit the Yakuza. It was just confusing all in all. You may say the plot of number 1 didn't make sense, but it was less of a mindscrew.

One of Stand Alone Complex's strengths is the transcendental music. Yoko Kanno always has excellent music but this is one of her best efforts.

The movies also have good music but I don't remember much about them. The credits to the first film were memorable.

It's been a while since I've seen Innocence, but IIRC Locus Solus had set up an illegal ghost dubbing operation, planting the dubs in their geisha robots. The people being dubbed had figured out how to corrupt the dolls' programming and cause them to turn violent, prompting the investigation by Section 9. As for why they went after the Yakuza, I can't remember.

They went after the Yakuza because one of the prototypes murdered their boss. The new boss sent their assassin robot (the big one with the blade arm that Batou takes out) to kill the man who supplied them the prototype. IIRC it's never made clear whether they were aware that he was the one who helped make them malfunction, but it strikes me as unlikely.

@Will. It wasn't them who worked out how to do that, it was the supplier who's name I can never remember, but he demonstrated to them how to do so, because he wanted the operation shut down.

edited 25th Apr '11 5:36:58 AM by Sandor

I knew that wasn't completely right, thanks for the correction.

I finally finished watching 2nd Gig and Solid State Society yesterday, after a month of catching up with the whole franchise. (I had seen the first movie ages ago, but that was it.) Well worth the time.

Since you are done with GITS, which version did you like the best? The worst?

SAC (+ 2nd Gig & SSS) as a whole was the best, although there were episodes that did little for me. I did like the first two movies quite a lot, though.

(And I didn't read any of the manga, because I just don't read manga.)

I'm curious which you're refering to.

There's some real base breakers.