Justice League

I think you are mixing up the movie versions with the comic book versions. Batarangs are non-lethal in the comics — they are specifically designed to disable, but not kill. And while in the movies, the Batmobile has had guns and missiles, I've never seen an issue of the comics where he uses guns on the Batmobile.

I recall he's used explosively charged Batarangs in the comics and the comics Batmobile has depicted as having guns on it since the 90s.

Well nobody claimed that comics had to be realistic.

I think that is one of the reasons why the movies have such a hard time of not making Batman look like a hypocritical maniac. Because it is hard to create a fight which looks "cool" without explosions, and explosions are always looking more threatening in live action than in cartoons.

Well nobody claimed that comics had to be realistic.

Yes and no; comic books ARE supposed to be all about crazy shit, and that's why we love them (heck, the main reason I fell in love with them was because It was one of the few forms of media where I could see mythological gods, aliens and wizards team up to fight lovecraftian horrors and street criminals). But on the other hand, there need to be some amount of realism to keep the Suspension of Disbelief.

Edited by Theokal3 on Mar 26th 2019 at 11:46:46 AM

And yet he's never killed anyone at all.

The problem isn't Batman killing.

The problem is that we're approaching if not passed the point of time where Batman has the no-kill rule longer than he did not. And it's not like people watching comic book movies right now were alive/cognitive to read 1940s Batman.

So if you're gonna make Batman be kill happy, there better be a damn good reason to explain what happened to him to get to that point. And if he's kill happy, he sure as sin still can't a working relationship with the police.

Also, it's like fucking hilarious that like the fucking objectivist is complaing that others are living in a fantasy. Like... fuck.

Edited by NoName999 on Mar 26th 2019 at 7:47:21 AM

He's killed vampires, parademons, Darkseid once and attempted to kill Brainiac and Swamp Thing.

Bruce doesn't have a good relationship with the police in Bv S. We even see them shooting at and trying to apprehend him once. And as for why he's killing this is shown at the beginning of the movie and explained at least twice in the film. And between the Burton and Nolan films, Bruce killing is not new. Hell, I met a number of people who didn't read the comics and only saw the movies and didn't know Batman had a rule against killing.

I mean, you say the problem isn't Batman killing but there are a thousand and counting voices screaming "Batman doesn't kill" across the net so really should we even bother giving explanations when people will find fault with it no matter what?

Edited by windleopard on Mar 26th 2019 at 7:57:11 AM

Right, Batman being a mass murderer isn't inherently a problem, but it is a Voodoo Shark.

I had thought that Snyder's quote was in relation to people insisting that DCEU Batman doesn't kill anyone (which he absolutely and inarguably does), but nope. He somehow thinks that a no-kill rule is the least believable thing in the DC Comics.

Honestly, JL might have retconned away Batman's murder-happy tendencies, like it did so much of BVS. Because otherwise The Commissioner Gordon just doesn't make sense.

Edited by Larkmarn on Mar 26th 2019 at 10:59:58 AM

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When Captain America kills, it’s pretty noticeable that he only does so when it’s necessary or unavoidable. When it’s not needed, he’ll go out of his way to save his opponents, like he did when the German special forces attacked Bucky. Cap also only has moderate durability; getting shot really ruins his day.

Batman in BVS does not only kill, he kills in ways that are needlessly cruel. He blasts cars to smithereens despite being in an armored Batmobile taking zero damage. He initiates fights in crowded zones, causing onscreen civilian deaths. He throttles men to death when they’re already helplessly pinned to the wall. Getting shot in the head point-blank only mildly annoys him, so he has little need to be so brutal to attackers who pose him little threat. And the Ultimate Cut even draws attention to his actions spreading poverty and breaking families in Gotham. Does he give any reparations upon his repentance? No, he just goes back home, still rich and free of consequences for years of unrestrained killing.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Mar 26th 2019 at 10:23:32 AM

He also uses a guy’s a machine gun to shoot others.

Sure he’s got a lot of “not-guns” but he makes a principle of never using regular guns.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 26th 2019 at 8:19:57 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

So even though Synder said his version of JL wasn't really filmed, there is in fact a Synder cut and he's trying to get it out

As much as I ranted about his objectivism and just bad movies, I thought he was at least a decent man. But holy shit, this guy has an ego.

It was confirmed when he stepped down that he had a rough cut shown to studio execs, so the existence of a "Snyder Cut" was never really in doubt, the question was only just how close did it get to a finished product pre-reshoots. Loads of effects-completed deleted footage have made its way online.

The underlying issue behind the violence in MOS and BVS is that pretty much everything has precedence in the comics, in many cases one-to-one. Despite their apparent codes against killing, it's really hard to reconcile that with the fact that people are dying around them constantly. In The Dark Knight Returns, Batman was stalking henchmen and in the ensuing chaos one of them in riddled with bullets from friendly fire. We don't see exactly what happened, but either Batman set up that henchmen as a decoy or directly used him as a shield, neither of which is particularly flattering to the no kill rule. Right before the famous "Rubber bullets, honest" line he was also using tank rounds to destroy buildings and disperse crowds. College Humor even has a few sketches on The Dark Knight trilogy Batman refusing to admit he is killing people (assault rifle headshots "He's just sleeping"), as bare minimum there was a lot of vehicular carnage in those films.

So I don't think it is so much that Snyder completely rewrote the characters and more that he didn't hide behind any ambiguity that city-destroying battles left no casualties.

The killing was never the issue. The movies being utterly tone deaf about it was.

Well, that one wasn’t really a parody of the films as it featured a Batman who genuinely didn’t know what death or guns are.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Mar 26th 2019 at 9:49:01 AM

Between this, dead Lois in Justice League and his desire for the dead Robin to be Dick, not Jason...yeah, every time he unveils some new info, I'm just more and more grateful he's not steering the ship anymore.

He is like the kid who comes in and smashes all your toys and then tells you that you are a killjoy if you dare to complain.

Lois being dead was supposed to be bad future that was prevented.

I don't think that analogy works as the toys aren't really "yours".

Edited by windleopard on Mar 26th 2019 at 11:13:36 AM

Then let it be the toys in the Kindergarten, care centre, whatever if that makes you happy. Point is that he has no respect or love whatsoever for them. So maybe he should play with something else which fits his perspective better.

Wait, what's this about Lois being dead in Justice League?

The original Syder cut was gonna have Darkseid kill Lois Lane so that Superman would succumb to the anti-life equation. Which would cause the Knightmere scene that Bruce dreamted up. He, the Flash, and a busted Cyborg will be the only ones remaining and they send the Flash back to the past to tell past Batman that Lois is the key.

Basically, instead of poor retread of the first Avengers movie, we would have jumped straight Avengers: Endgame.

Edited by NoName999 on Mar 26th 2019 at 11:44:53 AM

If the issue was merely tonal problems we wouldn't be getting "Batman/Superman don't kill ever" arguments. I freely admit those elements could have been expanded and improved upon, but the issue is people projecting their own conceived notions of how their favorite characters must act, and is what Snyder was sniping about. Reportedly, in Justice League Batman was supposed to be wracked with guilt over not just Superman's death but his own escalating brutality, trading a "do anything necessary to kill Superman" extremism to "die in battle to atone for that mistake" extremism.

Lois dying and it's impact on Superman is already at the core story of both Kingdom Come and Injustice, and Superman's Face–Heel Turn in the Knightmare was apparently because that made him vulnerable to the Anti Life Equation. That's one of the interesting things about all this information, in that it's all rooted in legitimate comics lore rather than just making up everything wholesale.

Except that it has been proven again and again that you can overcome those notions if you just deliver a take on the character which works one way or the other. The problem with Snyder's movies is that the text isn't supported by the subtext.

At this point we are so far beyond the "audiences didn't like it, it was a box office bomb" part of the discussion it might as well be irrelevant. Money makers are villified later, bombs become a Cult Classic, a good marketing campaign can make all the difference. The backlash to The Last Jedi is pretty well equal to BVS and it got a lot more money and critical acclaim. The perception of the creative team is irrelevant when talking about the quality of ideas.

So I see Zack is still being his usual self. Disappointing in a way, but not that unexpected when you think about it.

Uh, wow. Really curious how critics would have felt about that version of the film now.

Edited by VeryMelon on Mar 26th 2019 at 4:03:47 AM

Versimillitude, sure, but nobody really wants Batman to suddenly have to deal with a realistic police force/UN that decides to stop giving him free run over Gotham because, yeah, nobody in their right mind would allow this man to operate unchecked.

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