Universal Concept, Non-Universal Description: Hikikomori

I literally stumbled on this page page just now (by hitting the "random item" button), and was struck by two things:

1) The page is written in an extremely Japano- and Anime-centric manner despite the concept being pretty universal. (Can anyone name a culture on this planet who doesn't have shut-ins, hermits, and other self-imposed exiles within it?) Exhibit A of this point is the fact that the title is in Japanese.

2) In support of point one, there are more non-anime examples on the page than there are anime examples.

The page needs to be rewritten to be less culturally specific.

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.

This isn't about any kind of shut-in hermit. Or, at last, it shouldn't be, under that name. This is/should be about the social phenomenon that fell over Japan in recent times. They have their own set of peculiarities and stereotypes, most notable being often compulsive Otakus.

This trope needs, at last a split, I believe.

Um... that doesn't make it any better, as that would make it Shut-Ins, But In Japan. Especially given that there are very, very few cultural peculiarities that cannot be chalked up to general, non-specific human psychology. I am absolutely certain that the root psychological causes of this phenomena you speak of are the same as those that created every hermitted newspaper-hording way-too-man-cats-in-the-house old woman in the United States.

As for Otakus, you've obviously never been to a Star Trek convention if you think that phenomena is culturally specific.

As a natural Splitter, though, if that's what it takes to fix the problem I'm all for it.

edited 5th Apr '11 8:40:26 AM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.

It is only Shut-in, but in Japan if poorly written. As I said, the stereotype has its own elements that are absent from shut-in from other places. It is just a Sub-Trope.

I am not an specialist in either, though. I am mostly influenced by Japanese media so, while I do know 'shut-ins' are not exclusive to Japan, I don't know the stereotype associated to them else where. If they are sufficiently similar, they should, indeed, be the same trope, with a non-cultural specific description (although the Hikikomori may deserve a paragraph).

Okay, you've made the positive assertion that the word "Hikikomori" implies "elements that are absent from shut-in from other places". Support that with evidence please.

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.

I do think Hikikomori is more than just general shut-ins, otherwise it wouldn't be a trope. Are there really more non-anime examples or non-Japanese examples on this page? This character type is definitely more prominent in Japan, because of the cultural issues surrounding it in that country, but I haven't run across that many shut-in characters in stuff I've read or watched. There are random characters, sometimes, like the crazy cat lady in Kids Next Door, but those would go under Basement-Dweller because this is Played for Laughs, whereas Hikikomori seems like a more serious trope about this issue, and is a trope that occurs more often and more prominently in Japan rather than in American works.

edited 5th Apr '11 9:17:22 AM by redlar

I laugh in the face of suffering.

I've read mainstream Western news articles about the phenomenon which suggest that the phenomenon is more than just Shut Ins But Japanese. Different both in number (i.e., there seem to be a lot of them, compared to most cultures) and kind. (A lot of commonality between individuals, whereas in America or other places, you might have Crazy Cat Lady, Crazy Old Guy In a Mountain Shack, Hoarder Guy, etc., who don't have a ton in common besides the shut-in part.)

And I think it's at least perceived as a National Problem, in a way that Crazy Cat Ladies would never be.

It would certainly be a subtrope of a broader trope, Shut In, though it seems we don't have that one, except as the redirect for this trope.

edited 5th Apr '11 9:24:53 AM by suedenim

Jet-a-Reeno!

Coincidentially, the Oxford Dictionary of English defines hikikomori as an english loanword, that means:

• (in Japan) the abnormal avoidance of social contact, typically by adolescent males

edited 5th Apr '11 9:32:01 AM by EternalSeptember

If you read the trope page, the Western examples outnumber the Eastern version by a wide margin and there doesn't appear to be a great difference between them.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Hmm, to me this suggests we need a Shut In supertrope.

Jet-a-Reeno!

At the very least, Shut In should not be a redirect to this page as it's currently written. Either broaden it or make a new page for the supertrope.

Gah, ninja'd

edited 5th Apr '11 9:37:48 AM by joeyjojojuniorshabadoo

I skimmed through the categories, and it just looked like a lot more examples came from Japan than the West. The two categories where the West outnumbers Japanese examples are Music and Live Action TV.

Shut-in as a Super Trope would definitely be better than making it a redirect to Hikikomori.

edited 5th Apr '11 9:38:58 AM by redlar

I laugh in the face of suffering.

And to add, I think examples like "Howard Hughes was a Hikikomori" are just people doing Square Peg Round Trope combined with the fact that we don't seem to have a "Square Trope" that Howard Hughes would legitimately fit under.

Jet-a-Reeno!

Well, some of Hughes' behavior in some scenes fits stereotyped Hikikomori behavior, like pissing in bottles. That's probably why it was put on the page. At some points of his life, he sort of was.

I laugh in the face of suffering.

Sure, but in other ways he's the total opposite of the stereotype. Hughes was anything but an underachiever, he wasn't a young man when he demonstrated these traits, etc.

Jet-a-Reeno!

That's true. I actually think he'd fit better in the Madwoman in the Attic, gender notwithstanding.

I laugh in the face of suffering.

x5 You didn't skim well. The only categories where western examples aren't the majority are Anime & Manga, and Video Games. Every single other category is mostly western examples. We really need to either make this trope more general, or make it a supertrope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Those other categories are small. Web Originals has 2 examples out of 3 that are inspired by Japanese franchises. I do agree with a supertrope though.

edited 5th Apr '11 10:06:31 AM by redlar

I laugh in the face of suffering.

Isn't that because most people simplely don't know Japanese stuff other then anime and video-games? Even if there were many Japanese books and Japanese tv series with Hikikomoris, people don't add them because they don't know them. If you add the anime an video-game section (and there is only Japanese examples in the Video Game folder), the number of examples outnumber the rest of the sections.

Anyway, so people actually agree with me that Hikikomori is a bit more then just a 'shut-in, IN JAPAN'? IF so, we need a supertrope.

Incidentally, what are the differences between the two? As I said, I only know the Japanese kind, so I don't know the western stereotype. What make them distinct tropes?

(and, no, Worldmaker, I can't support my claims, but I made it explicitly in my second post I couldn't)

Wow, what? Someone call anthropology and let them know all their data and research has been disproven.

But more immediately relevant, even if this thesis is true*

, even if "general human psychology" is where all cultural specifics comes from, that doesn't mean cultural specifics don't exist.

A Shut In supertrope does sound like a good idea, though.

Productivity is for people without internet connections. -Count Dorku

edit: Never mind, my point was already mentioned.

edited 5th Apr '11 11:27:53 AM by Meeble

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!

So far, the only evidence that anyone has provided to show that this isn't Shut Ins, But In Japan is to repeatedly say "it happens a lot in Japan" and "it's different than any other kind of Shut-In, because it's in Japan".

Which, to me and my admitted limited knowledge of anthropology (but surprisingly large education in psychology and human behavior), means that the difference between Hikikomori and the basic everyday obsessively hermetical shut-in is that one is Japanese and the other isn't.

Does anyone have any real reason why the two aren't the same thing? Other than "because we say it is", I mean?

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.

Is there some difference in its depiction in Japanese media?

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Hikiokomori is a trope of Japanese media. This is a wiki of media tropes. It is kinda what we do here.

[edit: Since a lot of the argument against seems to come from a 'I haven't read of it, therefore it does not exist' sort of place: the Wikipedia page on same.]

[edit 2: Oh god, Worldmaker is the same guy who sent a previous thread on a 5-page derail about how badwrong it is to have an 'anime and manga' section, since obviously they're cartoons. Forget it, I'm outta here, I was never here...]

edited 5th Apr '11 12:32:04 PM by hatless

Once again, the question was "How does it differ from the standard Non-Japanese shut in?"

And so far, the only answer is "It's shut in's, but Japanese". Which means there's no difference whatsoever.

Edit: Even the Wikipedia page basically boils down to "shut ins in Japan". The only tangible difference is in numbers: there are more of them there than here. But the phenomenon is otherwise pretty much identical to what Howard Hughes, J.D.Salinger, Frances Bavier, and Ted Kaczynski (minus the latter's letter-bombing habits) were going through.

Edit 2: And yes, I am the same Worldmaker who dared ask a simple question, and then refused to accept "Shut up and don't ask inconvenient questions" as an answer. Ooooh, I am so very scary! I ask questions! Oooooh!

edited 5th Apr '11 9:28:51 PM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.