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Human Chess.

Fits in with my theory that the world and natural inclination tends toward us viewing each other as commodities. Feeling like a wonky cog that doesn't fit into the machine and as a useless, broken commodity has given me a pull toward death.

So, reminders that at least in some people's eyes, we're supposed to be something more is a good thing.

Better than Before.

What I believe about and how I always try to explain the "faith, not works" concept basically comes to; He really, really wants to save everyone, but if you don't want his help, He won't.

And when people bring up "but that means Hitler is in Heaven" as a counterpoint... I remind them that ol' Adolf has to deal with a lot of the people he's hurt face-to-face now.

And he probably wasn't really a Christian. And even if he was, he'd be getting the nosebleed seats. An apologist I like to read/watch would say scrubbing toilets in the New Jerusalem.

I wouldn't mind saving Hitler if it meant everyone else (and a lot of good people) were saved.

Then again, I think what would get saved of Hitler is only a few human good-points he had, like a flame-kissed little coal nugget of Hitler - maybe a guy who loves art and dogs and DOES have to deal with the knowledge of the suffering he caused. And it may take a lot of burning down before he is ready.

Then, you kind of get into questions of Death of Personality ...

When I worry about things like this, I'm always more concerned with other people. I don't want to burn forever, but I honestly wouldn't mind a little torching if would make good on some of my mistakes.

On a related note, do you think you can retroactively pray for someone else's salvation? My mother isn't sure, but she hopes you can because she blames herself for several of her non-Christian friends that have died.

It's not even about giving them an easy way out for her like "oh I can just pray for them later" or something — the thought of the state they're in right now is excruciating to her.

edited 7th Dec '14 5:48:41 AM by BaffleBlend

Johnny's Race.

I have a confession to make that's been eating away at my conscience. Forgive me, for I have committed the sins of hypocrisy and bigotry.

I really try not to be a bigot, I really do, but I have a strong Us Versus Them mentality when it comes to people of any religion against atheists. I'd even side with a Satanist if it meant not siding with an atheist. The very concept of atheism and especially anti-theism infuriates me because, if I'm living a lie and the truth means everything is meaningless and not shooting myself is just delaying the inevitable, I'll stick with the lie.

I'm fully aware that this is a toxic, evil mentality to have. I know I'm fully in the wrong here. I just don't know how to fix it and I'm asking for help.

edited 7th Dec '14 6:22:54 AM by BaffleBlend

how does this demonstrate itself? I mean, like, what kind of behaviors does this create? What exactly do you want to change?

Because, like, it's not wrong to think that other people are wrong, and it's not wrong to be emotionally affected by that. It sounds like it's important to you to believe that your life has meaning. I think that's a very powerful thing. But sometimes it can be all about how you channel these things that you value, and what you channel them into.

Some people believe in praying for the dead. I think it may be one of the lesser known Catholic practices - I'm not sure. I know that Mormons (who you may or may not consider "real Christian" ) infamously have their baptism for the dead, which has gotten them in trouble with the secular media....

I read recently somewhere that C.S. Lewis believed in prayers for the dead... Eh, I'll have to find that blog again...

My reaction to worry over friends and strangers who've died? It's well... as I've said above, I really hope those people who interpret the Ancient Greek and Hebrew of the Bible as meaning much less horrible things as is our English concepts are right. I've caught myself praying for dead people. Maybe it's silly? But I do a lot of silly things to make myself feel better and get through life.

Refining “fires” make more moral sense to me than “tortured forever.” I personally know mere mortals who are more loving than traditional American cut off forever the moment you die Hell!God. I don’t condemn anyone who believes in such… I used to… there are loads of reasons people do, it’s just… such a thing doesn’t work with my heart at all anymore. I’m too much of a Wide-Eyed Idealist .

As for atheists, I confess that I almost have the same problem. Almost. Having good atheist friends can disspell some of the angry on the Internet and in the media. Where it "almost" comes in with me is that all that angry on the Internet in and in society makes me neurotically second-guess my friends sometimes. My heart sinks a little when I learn of a friend's atheism because my knee-jerk reaction is "They think I'm stupid." Or "They think I'm a lesser human than they are" or "Not as grown-up as they are." Or maybe just "crazy," which I can live with because I am actually crazy. Then again, when I worry about that, that's when I step outside myself for a bit and wonder if upon learning I believed in anything at all that they were worried I was going to pounce on them to try to "save" them or threaten them with Hell or generally act like I was "more moral" than they are. This suspicious and rift does happen on both sides. You have one side which is relatively small and has had to fight for every right it's ever gotten and is still fighting for political respect, with some members who may have strife with their families or even be disowned by them, and on the other side, you have a bunch of people (us) who worry about being called stupid, or worry that someone wants to take our meanings away from us.

And I'd love to stand between the drawn battle lines, putting flowers in the gun barrels, but I have so many gunshot scars...

At least I know that some of my neurosis about it isn't bigotry-based so much as it is a general distrust of humans and low self esteem based. I had a lot of friends "leave" me as a kid when I was the Designated Target for ridicule on the playground and being with weirdo me was social cancer. I guess those feelings never wear off, even with online friendships.

edited 7th Dec '14 12:44:32 PM by Shadsie

I don't think it manifests outwardly, but that's not the issue. The issue is that I hate a group of people for their belief system. No matter which way you look at it, that's wrong.

I do have atheist friends, but they are really insensitive sometimes. I still feel alienated from them.

edited 7th Dec '14 1:14:40 PM by BaffleBlend

Further thoughts on divides, in general, if it helps any:

I think a lot of people really are just afraid that "the Other" is going to take something away from them. You see it with immigration issues - People wanting to put up a Mexican-American border-fence to keep out those "Mexicans who wanna take away our jobs!" (Forgetting that most of the jobs border-crossers are almost slave-labor... and I know of at least one instance where it WAS slave labor in my old home of Arizona).

The anti-black racism and issues with police violence we are seeing in the news... we all thought we were getting over racism, right? No... there's still this underlying fear of the former-slave race getting all "uppity."

The rifts between rich and poor... Have you noticed how some of the wealthier politicians out there seem to be soooo afraid of people like me on Disability or food stamps?(I have my own bigotry here... they think my hardworking family are lazy while they sit on their fat asses and shut down Congress twice a year because they get to whiny to do their jobs)? They seem to think that sharing even a tiny sliver more of the pie means we're all going to become Communist Russia.

And I think that's the way it is with Christians (or even religious people in general, but Christians especially) and Atheists in America / England. We all sort of side-eye each other a lot if not outright call for the "ridicule and denigration in public" because there seems to be this perception of "threat" - and maybe even Utopian visions involved. On the Christian end, there is a loss of social power we are feeling right now. I actually think this is a good thing, because I think Christ's work is best under fire and suffers when his followers get fat and happy and the whole path becomes popular enough to follow that people who don't really follow it claim it. Still, any group that has had a lot of power over the centuries isn't going to want to give it up.

For the gentle Christian who doesn't care for power, well, when we get the mean riducluers and denigrators on our butts, we feel like "These people don't just want to take away our status and general respect as human beings, they want to take our faith from us, to take our meaning."

And that is just what some of them want to do, too - the kind of "missionary" sorts, the ones that feel Utopian - like, "The more people we get out of the superstitions, the more enlightened humanity will be." It seems to me that some people really do think they can build a better or even perfect world if they just get rid of ONE THING and they think that ONE THING is religion / faith / a spiritual sense.

Likewise, I think atheists fear us, too... Not only the cultural hegemony, but I suspect a lot of atheists fear their right to not pray and to not be innundated with stuff they find cheesey is in danger, their right to certain political views that have been infected with religion (personally, I honestly don't think the abortion debate should be up to religion AT ALL, it strikes me more as a broader ethics issue, but you'll find no debate more religiously charged). And I think, most of all, they fear a loss of identity.

Over in the Anxiety thread in Yack Fest , if you go back a ways, you will see a rant by someone concerning her sister's funeral - "They gave a Catholic funeral to an atheist!" I saw someone on a Yahoo comments page about a Trans-woman being buried as a man by her family speak of similar things, "I have a will that tells my family that I don't want priests at my funeral." That's just one of the kinds of things in which atheists feel on the defensive... that us superstitious boobs aren't going to leave well enough alone with them and will insist they belong to us when they do not, instead of respecting them for who they are.

So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that we fear taking away from each other, and some things some of us actually do.

I guess what I'm say here, is if you want to try to change your attitude and be better about healing the rifts is that remember what your scout troop leader told you about strong wild animals in the woods "They're just as scared as you as you are of them."

Shadsie, your thing about Christianity working best when under fire actually makes a lot of sense to me. Never thought of it that way originally.

...

So, um, hello Christian Tropers. had a question.

How do you deal with the more judgmental, egotistical, Dawkings-parroting members of the misotheist/anti-theist/atheist group in real life? I'm on the same side of the fence as them, but I have grown to hate them to the point where I kind of wished their fears of a "religious dictatorship" would come to life just so I could watch them die in the streets.

They mostly target the more gentle, sane of your group rather than the crazies, and that bothers me. They drive me nuts and I'm not even the target of their trolling/bullying.

How do you endure people like that, who have nothing better to do but bash your beliefs and accusing you of being the "problem"?

I've never encountered these types in the real world. I don't know if they just don't live in the diverse community that I do, or it's just that I'm an introvert who doesn't make much in the way of real life friends, or what. Then again, I haven't actually gone to church in years, either, so I haven't encountered anyone protesting a church or anything. The only person I've ever known who I think may be one of these types now / had the potential to become one of these types was an art teacher I had in high school... but this was back in 1996 before Dawkins was well-known. She was more interested in teaching art and got to bonding pretty well with me, actually. Even though I was a little Southern Baptist a the time and she was a soul I was trying to save and she would have been WELL WITHIN HER RIGHTS if she were to have "gone Dawkins" on me, she didn't, and we bonded over a mutual love of art and cats.

I was one of the few students who took art class seriously, you see, so I think she was "I'll take who I can get."

If I met anyone like this who behaved in real life like people do in in some places online, I'd probably ignore them, walk the other way. You know, the standard way one deals with crazy people. Maybe I'd be sweet and polite to them like I've been to Jehova's Witnesses at my door. Smile, talk nicely, try to get them out of my doorway as soon as possible and get back to my life.

If I ever saw anyone in the real world wearing one of those "I'm an Atheist, Debate Me!" shirts, I'd... walk the other way, or if I knew them and couldn't avoid them, just talk about ice cream or something.

How do I endure them? To be honest, I... don't. I've known those types of people, some of which I'm unfortunate enough to be stuck with as "friends", have thrown me into a (literally) soul-crushing depression, which in turn has caused relentless cynicism, suicidal thoughts, and, unfortunately, as I was just saying I deeply regret, prejudice.

I want to know an answer on how to cope with them as much as you do, but there doesn't seem to be one. It's outright sadistic how much they enjoy telling people that their existence is completely meaningless.

edited 7th Dec '14 5:33:44 PM by BaffleBlend

...maybe you should find new friends? tbh, whether they're atheist or not, anyone who goes out of their way to tell people that they suck and why is probably not a good person to be hanging out with. that sounds pretty toxic in and of itself.

another tactic is maybe focusing on the things that are good about these people? what do you actually like about them? 'slike, what attracts you to spending time with them? are there ways you can encourage those things and discourage the others?

...I dunno, I feel like it's relatively easy to get caught up in arguing particulars when the particulars don't entirely matter. so, like, are these arguments really worth having? Is it better to prove yourself right than to do stuff that benefits other people?

...I don't think that, as a Christian, you have the responsibility to push yourself into positions and relationships with toxic people. We don't save people; the Holy Spirit does. All we do is water, plant seeds, and sometimes reap. It's not our responsibility to change people. It's our responsibility to be a vehicle for change.

...I guess what might help you cope is just not getting into these arguments, and then protecting and helping the people they target. Tbh these people sound like bullies, and pretty dangerous ones at that. And, y'know, if it's your calling to pursue those people, then that's between you and God, I wouldn't know a whole lot about it.

possibly I should've brought this up earlier, but maybe pray about it too?

Here’s the thing about atheists you have to remember and what I’ve recently realised myself. Most atheists are not bad people. I myself have a lot of atheist friends. Actually I think most of my friends are atheist, or at the very least agnostic, and we still get along great. And the reason for that we are not dicks to each other about religion. None of them actively hate religion, in fact most have nothing against religion personally and have just come to the conclusion that it isn’t for them. I’ve had one friend even say that religion has and can do a lot of good for people he just doesn’t believe it’s for him. Heack the other day my mate made a quip about the bible and I casualty reminded him that I still go to church and he apologised on the spot!

This is how most atheist in really life actually are. They don’t really care about religion, but if other people do there usually fine with that. All they want in exchange is that I don’t constantly try to convert them to a belief that they have no interest in anyway and keep telling them that they’re going to hell for following my particular view on what god is unless that ask what that particular view is. People don’t hate Jehovah’s Witnesses because there religious, that hate Jehovah’s Witnesses because they come to their house and won’t leave them alone. (My apologies to any Jehovah’s Witnesses reading this.) You can’t, and shouldn’t, really hate these people, because most of them are ignorant, lazy or just don’t care. Honestly I kind of fell sorry for these people because they don’t have any way of easing the burden of existence that a belief in God provides.

However! The thing is, very important thing, is that doesn’t apply to those deliberately antagonistic, self-important, hypocritical, Dawkings-worshiping, bigoted, Anti-religious nutjobs, because, unlike actual people, they don’t live in the real world!

They live in their own self-centred universe where they are God and everyone else exists solely to appreciate how fantastic and intelligent and awesome they are, and they lash out at anyone who has a difference of opinion to theirs because they can’t accept that anyone who doesn’t think the exact same way as they do, being in any way as good and capable as tham. Or they think that anyone who isn’t as good or intelligent or right as they are as inbreed yokels deserving of ridicule.

There not atheists there ASSHOLES!

They don’t disbelieve in God because of bad experiences or because they just can’t accept the thought of one Omnipotent, Omnipresent entity, or because religion just doesn’t speak to them personally. They don’t believe in God because that can’t stand the idea of anything being superior to them!

Now this probably isn’t 100% accurate, as I am exaggerating to make a point after all. It’s like saying all Muslims are terrorist, it’s the absolute worst example I can come up with. But that is what it feels like on the internet, where every self-important dushbag can spew forth their opinions with the intent that everyone in the world hear there profound wisdom and how stupid everyone else is.

And the worse bit is that you really can’t deal with these people. You can’t ague them because there so blinded by their own ego they’ll never admit they’re wrong or that you might have a point. You can’t be civil and just say “we have a difference of opinion, but that shouldn’t matter”. They won’t let you.

Really the only solution I can think of at the moment is to ignore them, and I mean ignore them completely, don’t reply to anything they say, or do, or even go so far as to acknowledge their existence. Either that or be just as stubborn, condescending and immature as they are.

Thanks for the responses, I... I'll try to keep them in mind.

edited 10th Dec '14 3:27:41 PM by FingerPuppet

Stone Cry Out.

let us know how it turns out, yeah?

All other "Other side of the Fundamentalist Coin" people aside, if anyone here is ever worried about ANYTHING that Richard Dawkins ever says, I advise you to check out this Cracked forums thread:

http://www.cracked.com/forums/topic/177392/richard-dawkins-twitter-controversy

I skimmed through it a while back. I'm not a Twitter-person, but occasionally, articles and such about celebrities saying weird things on Twitter can be amusing. I became curious about the thread because most of the forum-goers at Cracked strike me as agnostic, atheist and antitheist, themselves. Turns out, they're just equal-opportunity mockers who are not above laughing at a scientist-turned-ranter who says a lot of strange things when given the Internet and character-limit.

It's not just his opinions on religion, but on rape, women, disabilities, and dog sex. Yeah, I'm pretty sure if my memory is correct that somewhere down the line in that thread, the Cracked-heads were making fun of a tweet he did about dog-sex.

And the thing about it is... The people at Cracked who Twitter-follow the guy seemed to be pretty sure that he wasn't trying for comedy, that he hates to be laughed at and was perfectly serious with everything he said. Which makes it funnier.

Dawkins is a smart man who is also a fucking idiot.

Intelligence =/= wisdom Or arrogance makes you stupid.