Merge NightmareFuel with HighOctaneNightmareFuel?

The distinction between Nightmare Fuel and High Octane Nightmare Fuel is supposedly that the latter is about stuff that was intended to be scary. Even putting aside the issue of how you can tell, this definition isn't consistently applied.

For example, for the video game section of HONF, a Sly Cooper related example was removed because Sly Cooper was a childrens' series. Now, I'm not personally familiar with Sly Cooper, but that's beside the point; if the distinction is whether or not it was intended to be scary, whether or not it was intended for children is irrelevant. The Legend Of Zelda, for example, is perceived as being intended for children (with the possible exception of the recent Twilight Princess) yet is known for High Octane Nightmare Fuel moments. (Ocarina Of Time especially.)

edited 5th Jan '11 11:45:08 AM by neoYTPism

I think the issue with the "Intended for children" thing is that originally, that's how the two pages were split. May just be a case of someone trying to "fix" it.

That's if my memory serves correctly, anyway.

edited 4th Jan '11 11:50:59 PM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

I'm in favor of a merge, I often see examples on both of them.

I gave up trying to correct "examples" of Nightmare Fuel that are obviously intentionally scary. Support a merge, the distinction is murky and subjective anyway.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

... well, the supposedly official distinction isn't really SUBJECTIVE... but it is at least presumptuous. Even Word of God stating whether something was or wasn't intended to be scary might not necessarily be truthful.

edited 6th Jan '11 5:15:00 AM by neoYTPism

Sly Cooper may be rated E, but it's really kind of targeted towards teens. And gamers who will never grow up no matter how old I am.

But soft! What rock through yonder window breaks? It is a brick! And Juliet is out cold.

If a trope is severely misused, it doesn't mean it needs to be cut!

I think the main cause of this confusion are... the titles. Yeah, I know that these tropes are the oldest ones in the book, and their titles are cherished like a good ole tradition by most veteran tropers. But try to look at these titles through an untainted newcomer's eye. Let's play a Guess That Trope:

• Nightmare Fuel - "something that can fuel your nightmares"
• High Octane Nightmare Fuel - (try it yourself before looking under the spoiler) "something that can fuel your nightmares, But More So"

This, is the main cause of the confusion.

Nothing in the titles implies that NF is the unintentional kind, and HONF is the intentional one. Nothing.

Now, what to do? Cut a perfectly good trope? Or change a traditional name? You decide. It's a Sadistic Choice, really.

P.S.: I personally support the rename, btw.

edited 6th Jan '11 9:09:13 AM by Zulfiqar

Nightmare Fuel was originally supposed to be about stuff aimed at kids that ended up giving them nightmares. Not just "scary and directed at kids", but "accidentally too scary for kids". High Octane Nightmare Fuel is stuff that deliberately gives you nightmares — it's intentionally, deliberately as terrifying as possible instead of "oops, we went a little too far there".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I feel like we had this discussion in the very recent past, but it didn't reach any resolution.

I still support a merge, possibly into a soft split. I've seen so many instances, in both example sections and on the forums, of people potholing Nightmare Fuel, when they really mean High Octane Nightmare Fuel, that I hardly even notice anymore.

I think the problem is that the names sound like super and sub tropes, rather than sister tropes. So people tend to just put Nightmare Fuel, since it sounds like the broader term. It's also shorter to write.

I'm not sure that the trope namer ever even made the distinction. The "unintentional" part seems like something we added.

There's also the option of just making Nightmare Fuel a super trope, and making intentional and unintentional versions as subtropes.

Part of me has to wonder whether or not "scary shit" is really a trope at all, with similar thoughts about the other -fuel tropes. But it's so ingrained into the wiki that it doesn't really matter.

I've said it before, either "X Nightmare Fuel" and "Y Nightmare Fuel" or "Nightmare Fuel" and "Something that doesn't contain the words 'Nightmare Fuel'." That's the only way this will stop coming up.

mudshark: I don't expect Nate to make sense, really.

Oh for the love of god.

Drop it.

Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.

My opinion has been thoroughly changed by your stunning argument, good sir.

Uh, drop what?

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

.+1 for a merge.

edited 7th Jan '11 1:01:56 AM by SpellBlade

If we merge them, what would be the merged trope's definition?

Scary stuff in general?

No. Just... No. No merging, bad wiki , bad.

[[User Banned]]_ My Pm box ix still open though, I think?

keep separate

I don't really see how a soft split would be workable, since both pages have the examples split into sub-pages, and merged would be monstrously huge.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!

There is overlap between the two though, (plenty of examples for, let's say, the Zelda series are used for both Nightmare Fuel and High Octane Nighmare Fuel) which implies a fair bit of misuse of the two; merging them would really root out this kind of redundancy.

Very true. And we had this discussion in the not-so-recent past, and in the further past, and in the distant past, and in the very distant past... We were debating what do with Nightmare Fuel and HONF back in the days before the forum existed, when all trope repair was carried out in YKTTW.

These pages are the gift that just keeps on giving.

I didn't write any of that.

If High Octane Nightmare Fuel is supposed to be intentional, why again is there the subjective banner at the top of the page telling you not to list it on the main page of a work and instead put it on the Your Mileage May Vary tab? It sounds like the page itself is confused on this.

Not to mention it's a very vague distinction to make. Yeah, horror movies obviously go into high nightmare fuel, but otherwise how else can examples be added without Word of God directly stating "we made this thing scary on purpose"?

I say merge. We don't have separate pages for Unintentional Moment Of Awesome and just Moment Of Awesome. When a direction purposely makes something in the Uncanny Valley in order to get a response from the audience, we don't have a page for Intentional Uncanny Valley or High Octane Uncanny Valley. High Octane and normal Nightmare Fuel should be merged.

^It's stuff that is supposed to be scary and succeeds. That second bit is the subjective part.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story

Short of a merge (which seems like a good idea), I like the thought of renaming one or the other so they don't both have "Nightmare Fuel" in their name.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

Someone erased the distinction, but

Nightmare Fuel: Things targeted towards general audiences and children.

High Octane Nightmare Fuel: Things targeted towards adults.

With stuff like Zelda that's targeted towards all audiences, I say that's fine if those examples go in both.