The Order of the Stick

Destroy the Snarl? No. It's a necessary step for making a new Earth-prison that the Snarl would never escape from because it would be unable to punch holes in it. You can't create a new world around the Snarl without destroying the existing world around the Snarl.

Destroying the Snarl is the kind of risky and ambitious idea that the plot will inevitably follow because that's how adventure stories go. I'm just saying, if you don't want to gamble the fate of the universe on a handful of assholes trying to do the impossible, this new information means that remaking the world right here and now would be an unambiguously successful move that totally solves the problem with zero potential for f*ck-up.

From the perspective of gods who've already watched billions of worlds be destroyed so what's one more, it's the right call. One more sacrifice and then the Snarl's threat ends forever, locked away in four-color chains. This eternal conflict can end tonight.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 22nd 2018 at 7:47:06 AM

I just had a thought, and please forgive me if someone else already hear be to this, but could this be part of the reason the original Gates worked as well as they did?

As stated, mortals are the result of a combination of the gods' power. Three colors in one. Their creations were likely more resistant to the Snarl for that reason.

Assuming mortals learn what Durkon is right now, and I assume that passing this to the Order is the point of all this, what if Thor's plan is to re-establish the Gates using the Dark One and/or his worshippers as a fourth color?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that flies in the face of everything Xykon, Redcloak, and the Dark One have been trying to achieve. Xykon would never go for it obviously, the Dark One would likely suspect a trick or trap, and Redcloak would be resistant because it means undoing several of his past actions, which rubs against his Sunk Cost Fallacy issues.

Assuming that unmaking the world like that will get the Dark One remotely co-operative etc. and that the Snarl couldn't eventually break through a stronger prison.

And that the price for co-operation isn't the equivalent of indulging the player that has fun at everyone else's expense because why even bother then?

"...what if Thor's plan is to re-establish the Gates using the Dark One and/or his worshippers as a fourth color?"

That's an interesting idea. It flies in the face of everyone's desires, because no one, not even the mortals whose lives are in danger, likes the Goblins enough to trust them or collaborate with them.

I'm just flipping through Start of Darkness, and not only are all three pantheons depicted with different colour auras, but the Dark One is described as being "a god in a pantheon of one" as he appears on page with a purple one.

This book was published in 2007.

This is the only section of the book printed in colour.

Edited by johnnye on Sep 22nd 2018 at 3:13:39 PM

So I just saw someone point this out on another site. Knowing how Meta Rich is with this series it would not surprise me if it's intentional. OOTS is a comic strip. This isn't just a statement about the work; it's a literal fact of their universe that they reference multiple times. In the real world comic printing is done using four colors that are blended together to appear as all the other colors. Three of these colors are yellow, cyan, and magenta which roughly correspond to the colors of the three Pantheons. These three colors can be used by themselves but there are some things they can't quite get right. In the real world we add the fourth color, black, which is represented by the Dark One in this strip.

It looks like dark purple to me.

I agree. The colors aren't exact but they're similar enough that I could believe it's intentional. We'll have to see.

Purple Is the New Black, after all.

That first one's not an assumption. It's literally the Dark One's plan. Plan B in the event that the Gates are destroyed is to let the planet be destroyed and then participate in the formation of a new planet. The gods will have to let the Dark One participate because them's the rules, and the Dark One can ensure that the next world's goblins get a better lot in life.

Which, according to Thor's assertion about the prisons always failing because they're only three colors to the Snarl's four, would totally solve the Snarl problem. Everybody wins! Except the mortals of this world, whose souls are cashed out before the Snarl can get them.

If indulging that player actually winds up improving the game for everyone in the long run, then maybe it's not such a bad idea. The worst thing the Dark One has done is tamper with the Gates. When this was the only world outside the one that became the Snarl, that was a terrible crime. He was recklessly endangering countless lives.

But according to Thor, all worlds are doomed to collapse anyway. Nothing the Dark One's done has actually changed anything. This world was going to fail like every world before it because the Snarl cannot be contained by a three-color prison.

So if the threat of global annihilation isn't actually the Dark One's fault, then what is he really guilty of?

But this also means Thor has no reason to not vote in favor of unmaking the world. Then the Dark One helps create a new one and the crisis is solved. The fact that he didn't(and that we have an entire book left) indicates something else has to be done first.

Or it means Thor's a good guy who feels terrible about each and every world he sees destroyed, as he's already established, and thus would rather try something else first. He brought Durkon here to go, "Look, that's THEIR plan, but here's MY plan."

I'm just saying, in the process of explaining the context for what he's about to tell Durkon, Thor has presented a pretty sound argument for destroying and remaking the world one more time. Thor's ace in the hole, the Dark One's new color, also makes the apocalypse argument significantly stronger than it had been when it was just "Make a new three-color world for the Snarl to inevitably destroy."

Which is probably why he didn't bring it up at the Godsmoot.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 22nd 2018 at 8:41:44 AM

Why are you so insistent that "those are the rules" means that they must include everyone? Yes, if all the gods are constantly squabbling then they would create a new Snarl. But to take that logic that constant disagreements repeated again and again will cause a catastrophe means that "nobody can be excluded" is stretching it. It's an assumption that the Dark One can muscle his way in by being a lone god.

"The prisons always fail because they're down a colour" does not lead to "having the same number of colours means the prisons won't fail".

"Okay, we can have a new game that won't end for the same reasons as the last one, but only if it's a theme that includes my single priority and lets me place them in the position I want". Basically holding an eternal game hostage and restricting everyone else's options.

x4 Even the mortals are in less danger from a controlled demolition. IIRC, Thor's admitted they can save people's souls and reincarnate them in the next world; if the Snarl destroys the world then they all cease to exist.

I'm guessing we'll find out in the next strip why Thor thinks the world is worth preserving based on this new information, because it sure isn't obvious to me.

Edit: and I've just realised that that's what you meant be "cashed out". I misinterpreted that.

Edited by johnnye on Sep 22nd 2018 at 3:48:11 PM

Because those are the rules.

Specifically for the creation of worlds, the screwing-up of which caused the Snarl.

Those. Are. The. Rules. Period. The entire premise of this plot is predicated on those rules. None of this would even be happening if those were not the rules. They. Are. The. Rules.

Literally the only thing he cares about is that goblins don't get shit on. All he has to do is establish that when his turn comes around.

The gods take turns in contributing to the world. We see that here, when Monkey insists on ninjas and even though another god thinks it's stupid, they have to let him have ninjas.

This is not as complicated as you're making it out to be.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 22nd 2018 at 8:47:19 AM

We don’t know that a four colour prison world would hold the Snarl forever, the Snarl was able to unmake the original four colour world, there may be more required than just remaking the world with the Dark One to lock the Snarl up forever.

There's no indication that it's as black and white as you're making it out to be. These are rules agreed upon by three pantheons. As we've just had a page that is making it very clear, multiple quiddities > one quiddity. When all the pantheons were disagreeing and disunited, we got the Snarl because they forced their will on things. However, if they were to collectively reject the Dark One, that is a different story—and again, not party to any agreements made between the others.

"Those are the rules" doesn't cover it.

And then what is he likely to do for every other time his turn comes around? Keep being a single-issue player, that's what. And selfish†, given the "threaten total annihilation" step he's happy to consider to get his way. Those sorts of players are no fun in games even if they reliably show up to keep things going.

† On the divine scale. Not from the worshippers' perspective.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 22nd 2018 at 3:54:38 PM

Thor said nothing about the souls reincarnating in the next world.

Also, I still have to say I find it pretty strange that so many people just can't get why a supposedly good god would need more of a reason to try and save people besides he thinks it might be a possibility. Maybe there is more to it, but what is so strange about "We could kill you all, but I think I've found a way to end this without needing to, so I want to try that."

Edited by LSBK on Sep 22nd 2018 at 10:01:36 AM

Nothing strange about it at all. Like I said, it makes sense that Thor isn't pushing that agenda, but the context he's explaining does make the apocalypse argument stronger than it had been before this explanation. The Dark One being a fourth color and contributing to making a fourth-color world makes the option very different than "Just keep doing what didn't work before," as it had previously been presented.

Which is probably why he didn't bring it up at the Godsmoot. The same guy who thought of "Y'know, we have a fourth color to make stuff with now," is also the guy that really doesn't want that stuff to be a new world. Keeping that to his chest and mentioning it to nobody until he can get Durkon alone makes sense for his character.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 22nd 2018 at 9:11:17 AM

Note that a number of other gods who are traditionally seen as Good (Heimdall, for instance) voted to destroy the world, and Loki (an Evil or at least Neutral god) voted to save it. So it's hardly a simple Good/Evil split.

I didn't say it was. However, trying to save this world by making it stronger (or something) is still perfectly in line with what Thor said at the Goodsmoot.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 22nd 2018 at 10:31:12 AM

Thor's plan isn't to use the Dark One at all. His plan is to teach the mortals about the Eastern gods, hoping the mortals can resurrect them in a similar fashion to how the Dark One was raised, now that the gods know how that can happen.

That doesn't follow, though. The Dark One is an entirely new deity elevated from a mortal. Nothing about his ascension indicates that the same method could be used to raise dead gods, let alone ones completely unmade by the Snarl.

I don't think this will be as simple as "we'll just make a strongest, four-colored world if we're forced to destroy this one, but let's try to save it, shall we?". Not because of any In-Universe consideration, but because of narrative tension.

I assume we'll spend the next strip(s) getting the detail about the whole thing (especially for the people who haven't read Start of Darkness), but I would bet that there's something that makes this a unique chance. As in, "if we destroy this world, we lose the fourth color and the cycle continues unchanged". The heroes can't enter the last book with a "well, even if we screw up the gods will take care of everything in the next world" mentality.

The heroes haven't had that mentality to begin with. The entire reason book 6 has happened is because they want to save this world, even knowing the gods can have a redo.

The heroes don't consider the gods destroying the world and everyone going to their proper afterlife an acceptable outcome here.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 22nd 2018 at 12:11:25 PM