Headscratchers / Undertale - Flowey

New entries on the bottom.

Flowey and the No Mercy ending (SPOILERS)

• Why would Flowey bother to show up in the finale of the No-Mercy run? By this point, he knew what a merciless monster the player character is. As a Flower with the power to hide underground, he could have been as safe as houses by just staying away rather than showing up to plead for his life. For a double headscratcher bonus: How is this ending even possible? Flowey showed up and destroyed Asgore's soul, the only remaining way out of the Underground. There's no way Chara could destroy everything in the world thanks to his actions. If anything, Flowey's last attempt to win Chara's favour probably justified the eagerness with which Chara destroyed him. Unless there's some whole WMG theory about how Flowey chose to save humanity at the end, I just don't get why he showed up at the end.
  • To answer both questions: this Troper's best guess is that either Flowey figured Chara was going to grab Asgore's soul and go wreak havoc on the world above, panicked and thought it was better to stay on their good side rather than risk death, or some part of Flowey—maybe the small remaining part of Asriel inside him—decided to sacrifice Asgore to seal Chara inside the Underground. Maybe both. As to why it didn't work, maybe a) Flowey counted as a boss monster?, b) Chara is neither human nor monster by the end, so the barrier doesn't work, c) the entire ending sequence with Chara is some weird metaphorical nightmare thingy while the actual Chara stays stuck in the Underground with nobody left.

Flowey and Saving (Spoilers, Kind of)

• Flowey/Asriel Dreamurr knows how to manipulate the timeline and can SAVE and LOAD on command, especially during the Neutral Run. Since Flowey is big on "Kill everything", why didn't Flowey restart the timeline anytime you chose mercy? He could basically force you to kill, otherwise you're stuck in an infinite time loop, and since he really just wants to hang out with you to the extreme, it would make sense for him to force this on you. On top of that, during the Genocide Run, when Flowey realizes you're too much of a monster even for him, or when you kill Asgore, or when you're about to kill him, why didn't he force a restart himself then?
  • If you kill Toriel and then reset to fix your mistake, he'll tell you, and he reiterates it on No Mercy, that you stole the power to SAVE, LOAD, and Reset from him when you fell because your determination is greater than his; it's only on the neutral path where he absorbs the six human SOULs and becomes just shy of a god that he's strong enough to brute-force past your determination and get saving/loading back.

Flowey's reaction after stopping a genocide run

• Near the end of a genocide run in New Home Flowey becomes scared of you after fearing you'll kill him too, so why is it that if you reset after that point he's upset with you? Shouldn't he be relieved?
  • The Genocide run end does not seem to work the same as the others. Chara says "let us erase this world and move on to the next" — this implies they're not just resetting the world via loading a save file, they're obliterating the world from existence. (This is the only reason Sans interferes in Genocide but never any other runs - because he realises your victory means the end of EVERYTHING.) If you wait long enough after Genocide, Chara will offer to "bring the world back" in exchange for your soul, but I think it's safe to say this is not just a reset because Chara just destroyed that world altogether. What Chara does is called a True Reset — which, as Flowey mentions, erases everyone's memories, including his. It's probably an entirely new version of the world, not just a reset to an earlier point of the same world. So basically, Flowey isn't relieved because the Flowey that was scared no longer exists; the one you meet on the next run — soulless pacifist — is an entirely new Flowey.
  • A True Reset doesn't recreate the world, it just erases everybody's memory of it more thoroughly than a regular reset, even somebody with a lot of Determination like Flowey. Flowey's non-reaction to you resetting after a Genocide run is for the same reason as his non-reaction to you resetting a True Pacifist ending. With that out of the way, that doesn't seem to be what the original poster meant; what I think they were asking is why, if you were to reset any time after Flowey realizes you're a threat to him but before reaching the end of the game, a move that he should be able to remember, Flowey's reaction is the same "why did you stop?!" he would give if you'd done it at any prior point. In all honesty, it's probably just Gameplay and Story Segregation. Toby may have put a lot of effort into making sure every single possible outcome was covered, but he's not perfect.
    • For what it's worth, this seems to have been patched up recently. I reset after killing Sans, and Flowey was nowhere to be seen in the Ruins.
    • It's worth noting that Asriel specifies at one point that deaths and loading saves weaken the grip of others on the world and their memories. Everyone seems to retain a BIT of knowledge when you reset – think of Toriel already knowing your preference, but not knowing how she knows or if it's true. It's possible Flowey's memories, while more whole than others, still aren't fully complete, and that he just doesn't remember being scared of you.

Flowey's sneak attack (spoilers)

• Before the true pacifist final boss, Flowey attacks Asgore, Undyne, Toriel, Sans, Alphys, and Papyrus. They all look very distressed and hurt from this attack, yet all of them are still alive. When you check him in the genocide final boss, Sans is shown to have only 1 HP. Considering that I can't imagine Flowey is one to use non-damaging attacks in any scenario and every other part of gameplay can apply to their normal universe outside of battle, I must ask: how is Sans alive?
  • Flowey needs every single SOUL in the Underground in order to make an artificial 7th SOUL. If he killed Sans, he would probably not have enough power to transform. Flowey knows how physically weak Sans is, and relying on the simple scare factor from suddenly being WRAPPED IN A GIANT FRICKIN' VINE rather than actual damage from said vine is less of a gamble than using more force and potentially destroying one of the SOULs he so desperately needs.
    • A nice idea, but it's known that you only need nearly all Monster SOULs in the Underground, not every single one. Napstablook wasn't even absorbed by Asriel since he shut the curtains due to the bright lights.
    • Most likely, Flowey doesn't want to risk not having enough and avoids killing Sans.
  • Flowey can put enough of a squeeze on someone with his vines to be painful without actually causing damage. If any pain at all caused one hit point to drop, Sans would have been filling up a dust pan ages ago after he stubbed his toe.

Flowey's soul snatching power (SPOILERS FOR THE PACIFIST ENDING)

So, how exactly did Flowey manage to take souls of all the monsters before the final boss? He did not kill them or anything, he just imprisoned them with his vines and wham, he turned into Asriel. How?

• The mechanics of soul stealing aren't really explained, ever. Asgore has the six human souls trapped in jars in the Neutral ending, and when Flowey gets his hands — or vines — on them, there's a flash of light and then (after you reboot the game) they're inside him, or at least inside the monitor where his face is. In the Pacifist ending, Flowey steals the human souls off-screen, and then absorbs everyone again through the same flash of light. So... maybe it has something to do with magic? A monster's Level of Violence? Who knows.
• At that point Flowey was or, via the souls, had become powerful enough to steal a monster's soul out of their living body, as Alphys' notes foreshadowed. Only question is how doing that didn't kill the monsters, but that's discussed in another headscratcher.

Flowey's faces (Spoilers)

Is there any reason (besides Rule of Scary) why Flowey is able to contort his face into all these weird expressions◊? This part is especially strange.

• We see from the Amalgamates that significant amounts of Determination makes monsters amorphous in form... maybe Flowey is the same idea but much much more stable and practical?

Flowey after Pacifist Run (Spoilers)

Why is this better to leave Flowey/Asriel alone in the Underground at the end of Pacifist Route? Of course, he is still a dangerous sociopath. However, what made him so cruel was his power to control time and the fact that, being trapped down there with only a few dozen people, there was only so much he could do before getting fed up with everything. But now a) with so many humans around, it's doubtful he will ever be able to reset again and b) with roughly 7,000,000,000 people in the world, there is much more to do. There is also another, more pragmatic reason not to leave him alone: with the Barrier gone and the Underground empty, he can easily travel to any place in the world and do anything he wants, and then just run away — and since no one knows about his existence, no one will know what happened. This small flower can somehow dig through solid rock, concrete, and other substances normally too hard for plants to destroy (or at least too hard for them to get through within a single century). Wouldn't it be safer to take him to the surface, place in a flower pot hard enough for him not to be able to break it, and have him under constant observation while at least trying to "repair" him back to Asriel?

• He can't go back to being Asriel. There's simply too much power needed. He was only able to do it the first time by absorbing the souls of nearly everyone in the Underground, and that's not happening again (at least without triggering war or mass slaughter). But he does have enough awareness of being Asriel to not wish harm on anyone: the very final scene you get in a Pacifist run, after you try to start the game up again, is Flowey addressing you directly, asking you to leave everyone in peace and let them have their happy ending. Whether you think being left alone in the Underground is too much punishment or not enough for Flowey's previous actions is up to you.
• It's important to note that Flowey is not Asriel. At least, not completely. Asriel died coming back from the surface. Flowey was created from a normal flower that absorbed enough of Asriel's dust and gained his memories. He may have the memories and identify with Asriel, but it doesn't change the fact that he is not the original. That SOUL is long gone by this point. He could only transform himself into Asriel when he had so many SOULs that he could freely manipulate his body with magic and reverted to his natural form when he released them. We can't "repair" him because there's nothing to repair: Flowey simply never had SOUL of his own to begin with. Unless we somehow create one for him or accept him stealing one from somebody else and suppressing their identity permanently, that's just how it has to be.

Why is Flowey the only one with an unblockable attack? (spoilers)

• Obviously, from a meta standpoint it would be unfair, but in-universe what's the deal? To be fair, a large number of monsters aren't that committed to ending you, letting you go if you do some random action. So let's talk about the ones with absolutely no reservations about your morality and know you need to be taken down: Undyne the Undying and Sans in a genocide route. In the pacifist route, if you do the fight with Undyne a certain way, she'll tell you she GAVE YOU a spear to block her attacks with. Given her honorable nature, being fair is normal. But why would she do the same in the genocide route? Undyne just saw you attempt to murder a helpless child in cold blood, and believes that you'll not only kill all the monsters, but every human too, unless someone takes you down. Fair shouldn't be part of the equation here. I think we can discount you stealing the spear from her, since we see she can make them vanish at will (like on the bridge chase scene) The other questionable one is Sans, who at the very beginning of the battle the final portion of his 'strongest attack' is two gigantic Gaster Blasters which take up all but the very bottom and very top of the battle box. If he had had them at different heights they would have crippled you from the start. My guess is that, even though they want you gone, if they didn't extend just a tiny bit of mercy and attacked without you being able to fight back they would be no better than you, who takes advantage of the helplessness of others as you rampage through the Underground. The reason why Sans uses an unblockable attack if you spare him is that your hesitance to be fully committed shows there's a possibility you could go back and fix the mess you made, and he might assume you NEED to die to reset the timeline. Hence the 'if we're really friends you won't come back.'
  • Mostly WMG answer here, but... it could be that act of giving the player the spear is what turns their soul to green — meaning that without it, they would be able to just dodge the attacks instead of blocking. It's also possible that an attack impossible to dodge would take up too much energy — remember that monster's bodies are made of pure magic, so overusing it might be dangerous to them. Note that Gaster Blasters are always either very small or positioned opposite each other so they actually shoot at each other — it might be that this way Sans can actually recycle some energy he puts into attacks, but if he didn't do that, he would just use up all his power almost immediately. His one unblockable attack is after the player lowers his guard, so it's much easier to do. And as for why Flowey can do this while everyone else can't... as said earlier, monsters are limited because their bodies are magical. Flowey's body is physical and only infused with magic and DT, so it's probably less dangerous for him.

Timing of Flowey's plan (MAJOR PACIFIST SPOILERS)

• Once the player befriends Undyne, everything else leading to the True Pacifist Ending is set in motion by Papyrus manipulated by Flowey. This includes: convincing Undyne to send a love letter to Alphys, asking player to visit Alphys in her lab and leading all monsters to stop player's duel with Asgore, leading to latter's Hazy-Feel Turn. Flowey himself meanwhile blackmails Alphys into opening the True Lab. However, all of this only happens after player completes Neutral Pacifist at least once and befriends both Papyrus and Undyne. Now, all of this makes perfect sense in context of Flowey's plan: he needs all monsters alive, so only sets everything in motion after making sure player won't kill anyone; He needs to release Amalgamates to make sure he can steal their souls (remember that Blooky was saved from it simply by closing the window shutters); He wants monsters to distract Asgore for long enough for him to steal human souls; By making player befriend Alphys, he gives them easier access to True Lab; Undyne gives player easy way to befriend Alphys, and Papyrus — to befriend Undyne; finally, he traps player in True Lab for three reasons: to make absolutely sure that Amalgamates will be released, to make player see tapes and to give himself more time for other steps. What doesn't make sense is timing: Undyne's letter can be only picked up after completing Neutral Pacifist and defeating Mettaton EX - but once we complete Neutral Pacifist, we can just reload save from before Asgore's fight and go back to MTT Resort (which will take about three minutes out-universe, and at most five in-universe), immediately getting a call from Undyne about the letter. So... what? In a span of five minutes Flowey managed to convince Papyrus to convince Undyne to write a letter, and Undyne actually did it, even though she herself states she isn't good at it? The first part might not be that impossible — but even without Flowey's suggestions Papyrus still tries and fails through the whole game to make Undyne reveal her feelings to Alphys. And it gets even worse later on — most importantly when he asks Papyrus to call everyone. He had to call him after player left True Lab (otherwise Papyrus would have no way of contacting Alphys) — meaning it took Papyrus and Sans to get from Snowdin, Alphys to get from Hotland and Undyne to get from wherever she was at the moment to the Throne Room just a mere minutes longer than it took player to get there from several rooms away.
  • To the first one, I offer two counter-points: 1. There's no way to say for sure how far Asgore's save point is from MTT Resort. Actual distance and geography is very rarely set in stone in RPGs, especially 2D ones. In a Final Fantasy game, for example, are you really expected to believe the entire adventure takes place over a stretch of land that could be covered on foot in say, fifteen minutes? No, of course not, because an epic kingdom-spanning adventure would be horrifically boring if done in real time. With this in mind, it's entirely plausible, probable in fact, that the walk from Asgore's throne room and MTT resort is far longer than it really is. 2. Flowey has been through every possible timeline in this universe and knows the script for every single conversation to be had in it. He knows exactly what to say to convince anyone to do exactly what he wants as fast as it can happen.
    • 1. It's not entirely the same. Generally Final Fantasy and similar games have a "World map" (which is purely symbolic - of course our heroes can't traverse the world on foot in 15 minutes, but it would be boring if it took longer) and "Location maps" (which, while most probably still not entirely to scale, are much closer to reality). Undertale instead only has a location map. And it's not like "Underground is actually much bigger, it's just shown to be small so the player doesn't get bored" - it's mentioned in several endings that it really only took Frisk a few hours to traverse the Underground. 2. But there are still certain limits to what can be done even with the knowledge of the script, and Flowey can't be even sure if his old tricks would still give the same results with Frisk interfering (AND Flowey's knowledge of the script doesn't include anything regarding Frisk, do it wouldn't help him with any such thing). Also, Flowey is only manipulating Papyrus and making him make other people do what he wants them to do. It's much harder than just manipulating people normally and the knowledge of script might not help - especially since he mentions at some point that Papyrus is much more erratic than any other monster and even with knowledge of script it can be hard to predict what will he do.
  • To the last one: Sans can teleport. What if he can teleport others?
    • Not only "what if" - he clearly can (he teleports Frisk with himself twice on Pacifist Run - at the beginning of Waterfall and at MTT Resort - and constantly teleports them around the place throughout the second phase of his boss fight). However, Sans arrives last at the scene, just after Papyrus, so question still stands (and in fact him arriving last in spite of being able to teleport and most probably being second to learn about everything raises even more questions).

Flowey's Transformations (Spoilers)

• How come Flowey only turns back into Asriel the second time he asborbs the souls, but not the first? Did he just not want to turn back into Asriel the first time? Why not? And if for any given reason he viewed reverting to his original self as something to avoid doing, then why chose to do it in the True Pacifist route rather than, I dunno, turn into an even more powerful version of Omega Flowey?
  • Because the first time around he only has the six human souls. The second time around he has six human souls plus the soul of (nearly) every monster in the Underground, which gives him enough power to turn into Asriel and break the barrier.