History YMMV / FireEmblemGaiden

* MemeticMutation:
** "Shut up, Tobin." Or really, [[FountainOfMemes almost anything Gray says]].
** The rather [[http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1258520-fire-emblem perturbed expression]] of one of the generic soldier portraits has resulted in a number of jokes about him being spread.
** '''[[LargeHam "...UNCLE!!!"]]''' [[labelnote:Explanation]]Shouted by Berkut in Act 4 when being told by Rudolf that he will stay behind at Rigel Castle for his failure to defeat Alm's army at the Rigel/Zofia border, leaving him in a VillainousBSOD.[[/labelnote]]
*** '''[[https://youtu.be/nQka4wv6BLw "Lies, lies, lies, lies, LIES!"]]'''[[labelnote:Explanation]][[ChewingTheScenery Another deliciously hammy quote]] following just a little after said VillainousBSOD. Commonly used by the fandom to jokingly express denial.[[/labelnote]]
** Unsurprisingly, Rinea and fire jokes, alongside [[VideoGame/FireEmblemFates Flora]] and [[VideoGame/FireEmblemGenealogyOfTheHolyWar Sigurd.]] [[labelnote:Explanation (SPOILERS)]]Rinea is sacrificed by Berkut for power, turning her into a flaming Witch (with the Vestal's model). Meanwhile, Flora and Sigurd also have death scenes involving fire. The jokes wrote themselves.[[/labelnote]]
** The three genders: Boy, Girl and Gold Knight.[[labelnote:Explanation]] ''Echoes''[='=] Prologue chapter consist of children versions of Alm, Celica, Gray, Tobin, Kliff and Faye, all classed 'Boy' and 'Girl' depending on their gender. And then there's Mycen, whose class is 'Gold Knight', which is then jokingly assumed as the third gender of humans.[[/labelnote]]
** I'm Ready To Roll![[labelnote:Explanation]] Genny's select quote on Full Health has became a source of memes.[[/labelnote]]

** "Don't worry. I'll crush these bastards." [[labelnote:Explanation]]Alm's use of the word [[PrecisionFStrike bastard]] [[spoiler:right before the final boss battle]] has reached memetic status among players, due to how out of place it is compared to the rest of the game's dialogue.[[/labelnote]]
** "Heheheh, foolish bastards. What you defeated [[ActuallyADoombot was just Lord Desaix's double!]]" [[labelnote:Explanation]]The way the game handles [[DevelopersForesight defeating Desaix before you're supposed to]] is often quoted just due to how silly it is.[[/labelnote]]
** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymMRyHCOhvw The thumbnail of this trailer]] for ''Shadows of Valentia'' shows Alm during a SuperMovePortraitAttack, but the frame that's shown makes the blue flames from the portrait look like [[WesternAnimation/SpongebobSquarepants Coral Blue #2 Semi-Gloss Lipstick]] on Alm's lips. [[http://swankybubbles.tumblr.com/post/160455594968 Fans immediately took notice.]]

** The aforementioned Forsyth and Lukas are also friends with Python, an archer who is very AmbiguouslyBi. Naturally, the fandom has begun to latch on a potential Lukas/Forsyth/Python trio...
*** Helping fans' cases with this one is the fact that Forsyth himself can be interpreted as AmbiguouslyBi thanks to his possible endings, making it very easy to ship him with Python anyway. Then, toss in their [[TrueCompanions good friend]] Lukas, and the [=OT3=] writes itself.

* AuthorsSavingThrow:
** After the last two DLC maps for ''VideoGame/FireEmblemFates'' fell victim to NoExportForYou, Nintendo surprised everyone by confirming that ''Echoes''' ''FE Cipher''-themed DLC would see a release internationally, despite being based on a Japan-only card game.
** ''VideoGame/FireEmblemFates'' drew controversy for its portrayal of non-straight characters, with the game's two [[GayOption Bi Options]] having rather shady personalities and/or histories. ''Echoes'' has Leon, who, while [[CampGay stereotypical]], is ''far'' more emotionally stable, and the AmbiguouslyBi Python and Forsyth. [[note]]Forsyth marrying an unnamed girl only if Python dies suggests bisexuality. Python calls Lukas and Alm "studs," but his DLC supports with Lukas have him mention his interest in women, which also implies that he's bisexual.[[/note]]
** The remake heavily tones down the NotBloodSiblings nature of Alm and Celica's romance in the original, playing it more as a ChildhoodFriendRomance. (With the prologue specifically pointing out that the two are not family in any way, not even [[KissingCousins cousins]].) This may be a response to the controversial use of pseudo-incest in ''VideoGame/FireEmblemFates'' to justify letting Corrin S Support the siblings.
** ''Fates'' drew some criticism for having no voice acting in support conversations (except when S-supporting with the Avatar), ''Echoes'' not only restored voice acting to supports, but made them ''fully voice acted'', much to the celebration of fans. It also helped that the voice acting was [[SugarWiki/SuperlativeDubbing top notch]].

** AThose who dislike Rinea tend to focus on her being Berkut's [[WetBlanketWife wet blanket girlfriend]], ignoring the fact that she does care about him regardless of his troubled circumstances.

* PlayerPunch: Sonya and Deen are mutually exclusive characters - meaning the only reason one of them is dead is [[YouBastard you had to pick which one you ''did'' want]]. However, most players consider Sonya because missing out on her causes her to [[spoiler:never get revenge on Jedah or put her sisters out of their misery]].

* DisappointingLastLevel: From a purely gameplay standpoint, Act V is much more boring than the previous ones, being mostly [[spoiler:a long slog through a dungeon and then the frustrating final map]].

** Brigand Boss. He ''doesn't even have a name'' and serves only as a Gazzak-like character, the early bandit leader meant to be disposed in the earlier stages. For some reason, he has a spot in ''VideoGame/FireEmblemHeroes''' Choose Your Legends event and he ''actually scored well'' for someone of his caliber, not even his progenitor, Gazzak, got a spot. Because of this, many has clamored for more exposures of the Brigand Boss ''anywhere'', to the point where they was a lot of rejoicing when he actually made into the game.

** Chronologically, when Alm said to Celica that without her wisdom, all he would do is to fight and conquer whatever stands in his way without hesitation or remorse. Two millennia later, we see the consequences of Walhart, an descendant of Alm who is exactly doing what the Saint-King did, but without a woman with a personality like Celica at his side to temper his foul parts of his personality.

* AngstWhatAngst: Zigzagged. While Alm reacts with appropriate horror to the revelation that [[spoiler:Mycen sent him off to kill his own father]], he has no real reaction to the fact that [[spoiler:he is now the Emperor of Rigel, despite his earlier insistence that he had no desire to become king of Zofia]].

** Take a shot every time Celica's [[spoiler:[[DealWithTheDevil deal with Jedah]]]] is brought up when discussing her character. Pretty much every discussion of her will have someone mention this, and how it makes her [[WhatAnIdiot an idiotic character]], regardless of the story reasons why she did it.
** A somewhat downplayed example as she does have some fans, but those who dislike Rinea tend to focus on her being Berkut's [[WetBlanketWife wet blanket girlfriend]], ignoring the fact that she does care about him regardless of his troubled circumstances.

[[folder:#-B]]
* EightPointEight: IGN's review of ''Echoes'' gave it the same infamous 7.8/10 score as ''[[VideoGame/PokemonRubyAndSapphire Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire]]'', mostly due to it lacking features from ''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening Awakening]]'' and ''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemFates Fates]]'', with the reviewer specifically lamenting the inability to ship Celica with Saber. Naturally, this did not go over well.

** [[spoiler:Berkut crosses it when he sacrifices his love Rinea to gain more power against Alm and turns her into a witch, after he hears her confession that she never cared about being empress and loved him no matter what he made of himself, and misinterprets it as an admission that she never believed in him and gleefully expected him to fail like he did. Once Alm notices Rinea, he is [[YouMonster shocked and disgusted to find that Berkut was willing to sacrifice his loved one without a care in the world for more power.]]]]

** Brigand Boss. He ''doesn't even have a name'' and serves only as a Gazzak-like character, the early bandit leader meant to be disposed in the earlier stages. For some reason, he has a spot in ''VideoGame/FireEmblemHeroes''' Choose Your Legends event and he ''actually scored well'' for someone of his caliber, not even his progenitor, Gazzak, got a spot. Because of this, many has clamored for more exposures of the Brigand Boss ''anywhere''.

* WhyWouldAnyoneTakeHimBack: After Berkut [[spoiler:sacrifices Rinea's soul to Duma in his blind thirst for power and revenge]], the fact that Rinea forgives him and takes him back is ''astonishing''.

** Faye from the ''Echoes'' remake is the most controversial character in the game. On one side, those who like her find her design cute and think she works off of the rest of the cast well, and are happy to see that the originally all male villagers added a female character to be more diverse. Those who like her also love that should the player [[DevelopersForesight forgo recruiting Faye with Alm and instead recruit her with Celica in Act 2]], Faye is happy to see her old friend after seven years in spite of her feelings towards Alm being not reciprocated [[spoiler:and [[GracefulLoser comes to accept]] Alm and Celica's relationship]]. It's also telling that, of all the people Faye knew while growing up, the only characters she gets support bonuses from besides Alm are Celica, and Mycen. For those who dislike her however, she's another HopelessSuitor for a Lord character, which is an archetype that most fans are growing to dislike for how shallow the characters end up coming across. Making things worse for her detractors is that she's SatelliteCharacter to Alm (unlike Clair, has a personality beyond just her crush on Alm). Then came the reveal that, while Faye ''can'' support with Alm, [[spoiler:Alm marries Celica in the end like in the original, and it's heavily implied in her ending that Faye ''never moves on'' (unlike Clair, who at least finds a SecondLove in Gray). While this has endeared her to some, who see her as a "tragic maiden" who was treated unnecessarily cruelly by the writers, others see her as a pointless addition to the cast who exists solely to be a living embodiment of [[AllLoveIsUnrequited unrequited love]], with no chance at a happy ending]]. In addition, some of her supports point towards her being a ClingyJealousGirl who is pleased whenever Alm and Celica have relationship troubles, and in their Act 3 base conversation she essentially tries to manipulate Alm's feelings in a moment of weakness, which doesn't endear her at all to her detractors, and some even go as far as consider her pandering to {{Yandere}} fetishists. Not helping was her support with Silque (the only support chain Faye has besides her one with Alm), which made Faye look like a {{Jerkass}} for not wanting to talk to Silque unless it was about Alm, and Silque has a fairly dedicated fanbase that did not take kindly to her one and only support being with Faye. In short, pretty much everything about her is polarizing.
** For Celica, the debate is over if she is a well written female Lord who is given realistic flaws and has a character arc that is consistent with the game's story, as well as being an overall likeable character, or if she's a hypocritical character who constantly makes stupid choices. Not helping is how the game portrays her flaws and beliefs, which lead many to debate if she's unsympathetic, or if that was the intent. The debate over Celica is particularly nasty and outside of her voice acting, she's the most controversial character not named Faye.
* BigLippedAlligatorMoment: The Fear Mountain map in the original, where you fight Nuibaba, begins with an extremely PurpleProse-laden OpeningMonologue. None of the other maps in the game have an OpeningMonologue, so it feels like an omniscient narrator suddenly enters the story just to vanish immediately afterwards. Even more jarringly, this is actually ''kept'' in the remake, though the narration is also present at other points in the story to make it feel more natural for ''Echoes''[='=] storytelling.

** Faye from the ''Echoes'' remake is the most controversial character in the game. On one side, those who like her find her design cute and think she works off of the rest of the cast well, and are happy to see that the originally all male villagers added a female character to be more diverse. Those who like her also love that should the player [[DevelopersForesight forgo recruiting Faye with Alm and instead recruit her with Celica in Act 2]], Faye is happy to see her old friend after seven years in spite of her feelings towards Alm being not reciprocated [[spoiler:and [[GracefulLoser comes to accept]] Alm and Celica's relationship]]. It's also telling that, of all the people Faye knew while growing up, the only characters she gets support bonuses from besides Alm are Celica, and Mycen. For those who dislike her however, she's another HopelessSuitor for a Lord character, which is an archetype that most fans are growing to dislike for how shallow the characters end up coming across. Making things worse for her detractors is that she's SatelliteCharacter to Alm, as a character from the same game, Clair, has a personality beyond just her crush on Alm. Then came the reveal that, while Faye ''can'' support with Alm, [[spoiler:Alm marries Celica in the end like in the original, and it's heavily implied in her ending that Faye ''never moves on'' (unlike Clair, who at least finds a SecondLove in Gray). While this has endeared her to some, who see her as a "tragic maiden" who was treated unnecessarily cruelly by the writers, others see her as a pointless addition to the cast who exists solely to be a living embodiment of [[AllLoveIsUnrequited unrequited love]], with no chance at a happy ending]]. In addition, some of her supports point towards her being a ClingyJealousGirl who is pleased whenever Alm and Celica have relationship troubles and in their Act 3 base conversation she essentially tries to manipulate Alm's feelings in a moment of weakness, which doesn't endear her at all to her detractors, and some even go as far as consider her pandering to {{Yandere}} fetishists. Not helping was her support with Silque(the only support chain Faye has besides her one with Alm), which made Faye look like a {{Jerkass}} for not wanting to talk to Silque unless it was about Alm, and Silque has a fairly dedicated fanbase that did not take kindly to her one and only support being with Faye. In short, pretty much everything about her is polarizing.

** While most of the redesigns in ''Echoes'' are universally loved, the only one that's generally agreed as a bit of a downer is the removal of Rudolf's [[BadassMustache handlebar mustache]] in favor of a pair of sideburns, likely done to better differentiate the emperor from Sir Mycen.

** Gargoyles themselves count. They have low Attack stats and can't equip weapons, so they're rarely a threat except to characters with ''very'' low Defense. But they have high movement, often appear in large numbers and their high speed makes doubling them difficult, making them surprisingly durable. Gargoyles encountered later in the game can also [[StandardStatusEffects inflict a status that prevents your mages from casting spells.]] And as stated above, Cantors often summon them.

* {{Asspull}}: While likely due to limitations of storytelling at the time in gaming, the original version of the game's reveal of [[spoiler:Alm being the heir to Rigel]] comes out of nowhere and lacks any foreshadowing at all except for for the fact that Alm has a brand like Celica. The reveal that [[spoiler:Rudolf is his father]] also comes this way because there was no way to even guess a fact like that. The ''Echoes'' remake made this a major plot point to address and it's given much more build up to justify it, averting the trope.

** For Celica, the debate is over if she is a well written female Lord who is given realistic flaws and has a character arc that is consistent with the game's story, as well as being an overall likeable character, or if she's a hypocritical character who constantly makes stupid choices. Not helping is how the game portrays her flaws and beliefs, which lead many to debate if she's unsympathetic, or if that was the intent. Unlike with Alm, the debate is particularly nasty and outside of her voice acting, she's the most controversial character not named Faye.

** [[TheEmperor Emperor Rudolf I]] was among the few to realize the gods Mila and Duma degenerated from madness, meaning he had to ensure the future of Valentia by any means necessary. He leads a [[TheConqueror grand conquest]] of the Valentian continent to feed a starving Rigel as well as make himself a target for a group of heroes to defeat so Rigel and Zofia could unite. Despite leading a war of aggression, Rudolf ensures minimum casualties are sustained and a trusted ally, Ezekiel, keeps his more militant commanders in check. By the time his infamy reaches the ears of Alm, his plan has been set in motion. Before his final battle, he orders his men to surrender upon his death to ensure no further casualties. He may have made mistakes, such as enabling Berkut's pride or telling no one but Mycen of his real heritage, but in the end, his gambit worked: his son became the first king of a united Valentia that lived on for millennia.

** If a character falls in battle in ''Echoes'', other characters may tearfully lament their fallen comrade during the post-battle results screen. What should be a TearJerker can become silly if playing on Casual, since FinalDeath is turned off and the characters are fine. For example, Est having a breakdown from losing Catria or Palla comes across as her being a major drama queen.

** Early in Act 3 on Alm's side, Clive and Fernand get into a brief duel where Fernand tells Clive that Alm isn't actually Mycen's grandson. This causes Clive to go through the rest of Act 3 questioning if he picked the right person to lead the Deliverance and he begins to doubt Alm's leadership for a while. Given the reveal later that Alm [[spoiler:is actually Rudolf's son]], you would think it would tie into that, with Clive telling Alm this fact, which would lead to Alm questioning who his family really is, and why Mycen would lie to him. Instead, Clive keeps it to himself, only making small comments about Alm's leadership, before it is completely dropped once Alm gives a WorldOfCardboardSpeech to Clive at the Sluice Gate leading into Act 4 that restores his faith in Alm. The execution is odd considering this is a heavy piece of {{foreshadowing}} tying into the big twist at the end, yet it only seems to exist to inform the audience that TheReveal is happening.

* PlayerPunch: Sonya and Deen are mutually exclusive characters - meaning the only reason one of them is dead is you had to pick which one you ''did'' want. YouBastard. However, most players consider Sonya because missing out on her causes her to [[spoiler:never get revenge on Jedah or put her sisters out of their misery]].

** Fans of Celica and Faye have been spotted fighting it out both regarding their characters ''and'' whether one or another girl is the best LoveInterest for Alm. One side says that Faye is a no-personality {{yandere}} who gets in the way of Alm and Celica's destined love, whereas the other side calls Celica a RelationshipSue whose ChildhoodFriendRomance with Alm is nothing but TokenRomance.

* CrackPairing: Lukas/[[spoiler:Conrad]] has a fair amount of support despite the two never interacting in-game. It could be because on top of their ages being very close to each other's (24 and 21 respectively) they're both handsome, polite, soft-mannered [[MemeticMutation ginger studs]] and fans see them as aesthetically pleasing together.

** In the original ''Gaiden'', they did the best they could with the limited format, but it was still very hard to write a WellIntentionedExtremist with complex motivations in an NES game. Firstly, Rudolf never appears until you fight him, his only dialogue in the game is his RousingSpeech pre-battle and dying words to Alm, and all we learn of his motives is Mycen's InfoDump to Alm afterwards, so what we get is an antagonist [[ShowDontTell we're told we should feel sad for after the fact.]] Secondly, Mila and Duma's madness was not a plot point in the original game, which makes Rudolf's invasion plan make considerably less sense, as it seems his only goal was [[ZeroApprovalGambit encouraging Alm to rise up and become a hero]], which is something he probably could have done with less bloodshed had he raised Alm himself. (The original gave little justification for why he sent Alm away with Mycen) His sealing of Mila is also given no explanation in the original game, making it look like ForTheEvulz instead of NecessaryEvil. The remake fleshed out his motivations much more, fleshed out Mila and Duma so his actions against them made more sense, and gave him more screentime.
** In ''Echoes'', his motivations are more sympathetic and he is an actual WellIntentionedExtremist, but the handling of his relationship with Berkut caused many to see him as this. He basically lied to Berkut about his status as the crown prince of Rigel, never once trying to tell him that he was never going to achieve that, and left him in the dark that he wanted a united Valentia. Thus caused Berkut, someone who already had a rough upbringing, to become focused on gaining power above all else to win the love of his uncle. As a result, when characters talk about Rudolf loving Berkut like a son, there isn't really anything to support that, especially since the only times on screen they interact, Ruldof is dismissive of him.

** Rudolf in the original ''Gaiden'' is a notorious case of this among fans who played that version. They did the best they could with the limited format, but it was still very hard to write a WellIntentionedExtremist with complex motivations in an NES game. Firstly, Rudolf never appears until you fight him, his only dialogue in the game is his RousingSpeech pre-battle and dying words to Alm, and all we learn of his motives is Mycen's InfoDump to Alm afterwards, so what we get is an antagonist [[ShowDontTell we're told we should feel sad for after the fact.]] Secondly, Mila and Duma's madness was not a plot point in the original game, which makes Rudolf's invasion plan make considerably less sense, as it seems his only goal was [[ZeroApprovalGambit encouraging Alm to rise up and become a hero]], which is something he probably could have done with less bloodshed had he raised Alm himself. (The original gave little justification for why he sent Alm away with Mycen) His sealing of Mila is also given no explanation in the original game, making it look like ForTheEvulz instead of NecessaryEvil. The remake fleshed out his motivations much more, fleshed out Mila and Duma so his actions against them made more sense, and gave him more screentime.

** A small complaint leveled towards Celica at the end of Act 2 is that she can come across as this. During her conversation with Alm, she criticizes him for going to war with Rigel, and after she leaves, the game seems to suggest Celica's in the right and that Alm should apologize...key words being 'seems to'. [[note]]Specifically, Tobin says Alm should apologize because he thinks it would help, simply not wanting to see them at odds. However, Gray tells Tobin that apologizing just for the sake of doing so could also be wrong, as not all arguments are purely right-vs-wrong. Meanwhile, Alm himself, while feeling down about the things Celica said, sticks to his beliefs because he thinks it's the right thing to do - even when he does apologize to Celica later, it's an on-the-spot reaction to realizing he was InnocentlyInsensitive to Celica's princess status (even though he couldn't have known this at the time), rather than her automatically having been right. Celica also clearly feels down after their reunion, and later on she's surprised that Alm doesn't hate her after the things she said to him, admitting that he's always been nice to her while she seems to be [[FatalFlaw only thinking of herself.]][[/note]]
*** In addition, the audience knows that Alm isn't going to war on a random whim, as he explicitly makes it clear he has no desire for power like she seems to think/fear, and is trying to protect Zofia (which he also attempts to explain to Celica). Furthermore, Rigel is the aggressor in most categories [[note]]Violated the peace treaty, helped overthrow the Zofian royalty and put [[HateSink Desaix]] in power, was preparing to attack Zofia outright - with troops in their borders even - etc)[[/note]] with Alm's actions in Zofia doing a lot of good. Celica's cry for peace might seem reasonable at first, but Rudolf had shown no intentions of actually listening[[note]]At the beginning of Act 4, Alm ''does'' attempt to do it Celica's way and offers to negotiate for peace before launching a counter-invasion; his pleas fall on deaf ears[[/note]], and combined with the above seems a tad ''too'' idealistic.
*** Plus, even though Celica only fights when she has to, or when the situation is important, the fact that she's fighting at all (including inside Rigel's borders later on) can make her look like a {{hypocrite}}.

* ViewerNameConfusion: Due to their extremely similar names, some fans mix up Celica's name with [[VideoGame/FireEmblemTheBindingBlade Cecilia's]]. The only thing that set the names apart is the extra lowercase "i" in the latter name.
* VindicatedByHistory: ''Gaiden'' was once considered [[OddballInTheSeries a black sheep]] among ''Fire Emblem'' titles, due to its many gameplay differences such as split paths, being able to level grind, and its UnbreakableWeapons. However, later games using some of these mechanics, like ''Sacred Stones'', ''Awakening'', and ''Fates'', made ''Gaiden'' feel less out of place. The remake cemented this new position, being very well-received overall.

** From a story standpoint, the remake does this to nearly everyone. Most characters in the original only had one or two, ''total'', lines of dialogue, resulting in ''Gaiden''[='s=] non-protagonist cast being considered among the least memorable in the entire series. ''Echoes'' not only fleshes out the characters' personalities while adding full voice acting and support conversations, but it also does what very few other ''FE'' games have done: have characters continue to comment on plot scenes past their recruitment. This is particularly notable for Gray and Tobin, who go from bland, flat characters to ThoseTwoGuys of Alm's routes. And on the villains' side, Jedah went from a fully straight example of the series' SinisterMinister trope to one of its more complex portrayals, where he actually explains ''why'' he's right. Of course, some still think that he is ''far'' too ObviouslyEvil, since his portrayal in the [[https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/e/ea/JudahManga.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120308144904 manga]] had him look ''far'' less deformed.

* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: While most of the redesigns in ''Echoes'' are universally loved, the only one that's generally agreed as a bit of a downer is the removal of Rudolf's [[BadassMustache handlebar mustache]] in favor of a pair of sideburns, likely done to better differentiate the emperor from Sir Mycen.