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[[folder: Kotomine saying the Einzbern aren't insane and are insane]]
When Kotomine is telling Shirou about the Einzberns in the ''Heaven's Feel'' route he says the Einzberns are insane and aren't insane in the same scene. This feels like some weird translation flurb, what does he actually say in the Japanese version?
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** Except that if Rin and Saber had formed a contract in the ruins, Saber would have been powerful enough to kick Berserker's ass. The real answer is that Nasu was saving that possibility for UBW. Though Rin!Saber did bugger all in that route in terms of actual combat.
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** Except that if Rin and Saber had formed a contract in the ruins, Saber would have been powerful enough to kick Berserker's ass. The real answer is that Nasu was saving that possibility for UBW. Though Rin!Saber Saber did bugger all in that route in terms of actual combat.
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** Its more or less stated that Shirou had only a few projections he could use before Archer's Arm destroyed his mind. He needed at least two in order to undo everything; one for Rule Breaker to free Sakura, and one to summon Excalibur to destroy the Grail. Wasting one of his few chances left to save Saber would mean he couldn't guarantee victory.
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** No, due to a quirk of the routes. Basically, the routes aren't considered to exist in three seperate universes, as much as there can only be one 'true' route...but which route is 'true' has not been decided, as a Schrodenger's gun.
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** There's actually a basis for it in Herales's backstory - Hera (Zeus's wife, who detested Heracles for being a child of her unfaithful husband - and she couldn't exactly punish Zeus) drove him mad, causing him to slay his wife and 2 children. Logically speaking, at the time, he would've fit the description of a Berserker.
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** There's actually a basis for it in Herales's backstory - Hera (Zeus's wife, who detested Heracles for being a child of her unfaithful husband - and she couldn't exactly punish Zeus) drove him mad, causing him to slay his wife and 2 children. Logically speaking, at the time, he would've fit the description of a Berserker. Which makes it even more tragic: he spent his life atoning for that incident and his other hotheaded actions, he is almost only known with a name derived from his archnemesis who wanted nothing more than see him dead, and even in death he is stuck in the most terrible space he was in his life.
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** Another way to think about it is "when people are killed they usually ''stay'' dead".
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** Servants operate under two laws: Antiquity and how popular their legend is. For example, Gilgamesh isn't someone well known for your average man, with King Arthur being the most popular one between the two, but Gil is certainly one of the most powerful Servants in the Nasuverse because of how Ancient his legend is. Coming from the Age of the Gods and from an era where Mistery is still in full force, it doesn't matter if he's well known, he'll be that powerful and he'll only get better as time goes on. The same could be said about Saber in this hypothetical scenario you described, her legend may be forgotten by that time (I highly doubt it, but that's neither here nor there) but her legend will be so old that it won't matter
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** Because the phrase "Nine Live Blade Works" sounds [[RuleOfCool fucking cool]] and fits the ThemeNaming of Shirou's techniques.
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** Without the Holy Grail War, Shinji was a bearable jerk.
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** The blue warpaint is highly questionable. It's based on statements made by Julius Caesar 500+ years earlier, and the word he used can mean "woad" or "glass." We're also very unsure whether the Romans still used muscled cuirasses in combat by the Principate period, let alone after the fall of the Western Empire.
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** Apparently, Nasu has stated somewhere that ''Fate/Zero'' is a pseudo-prequel to ''Fate/stay night'', essentially just to excuse any minor discrepancies. So your Watsonian explanation is likely that the events of ''Fate/Zero'' slightly differed in each ''Fate/stay night'' route/timeline, considering that the Nasuverse uses a multiverse.
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[[folder:Does Saber remember the other routes/endings?]]
If Saber agreed with Alaya serve in the Holy Grail Wars as her true self (rather than being sent to the Throne of Heroes and having copies of her Heroic Spirit being sent to fight in the Holy Grail Wars) until she wins the Holy Grail, then does Saber remember the other routes/endings? She obviously remembers the events of ''Fate/Zero''.
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** So could Gilgamesh have a version of the Grail in his gate?
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* I think in expanded material, the fight between Gilgamesh and Lancer went on longer than the former anticipated, and it was cut down to a montage for the anime adaptation.
** They may have been trying to avoid using Christianity too much and just went with an alternative civilization, the Sumerians.
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** Taiga is left out of HF to represent how dark it is.
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Added to "Title" discussion.
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** I'm unsure how to verify this, but a friend told me that Nasu confused "night" and "knight" when deciding on the title. So, considering it in that light, Artoria is deciding to "Stay Knight" at the end of Fate route.
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*** Actually, Mordred was very well covered by her armor, ''Secret of Pedigree'', which later became a Noble Phantasm strong enough that even Rulers have a problem trying to discover some of her statistics, ''including gender''. The armor even made it so her ''own master'' didn't know her gender until she took it off.
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*** Actually, Mordred was very well covered by her armor, ''Secret of Pedigree'', which later became a Noble Phantasm strong enough that even Rulers have a problem trying to discover some of her statistics, ''including gender''. The armor even made it so her ''own master'' didn't know her gender until she took it off. [[spoiler:Jack the Ripper couldn't tell right away that Mordred was female, and Ruler Shirou couldn't discern info either while she had the armor on]].
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*** Actually, Mordred was very well covered by her armor, ''Secret of Pedigree'', which later became a Noble Phantasm strong enough that even ''Rulers have a problem trying to discover her statistics, including gender''. The armor even made it so ''her own master'' didn't know her gender until she took it off.
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*** Actually, Mordred was very well covered by her armor, ''Secret of Pedigree'', which later became a Noble Phantasm strong enough that even ''Rulers Rulers have a problem trying to discover some of her statistics, including ''including gender''. The armor even made it so ''her own her ''own master'' didn't know her gender until she took it off.
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*** Actually, Mordred was very well covered by her armor, ''Secret of Pedigree'', which later became a Noble Phantasm strong enough that even ''Rulers have a problem trying to discover her statistics, including gender''. The armor even made it so ''her own master'' didn't know her gender until she took it off.
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* Why didn't Gil think of using Ea to destroy Unlimited Blade Works like he [[Anime/FateZero destroyed Rider's reality marble]]? This would have pretty much guarenteed his victory.
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* Why didn't Gil think of using Ea to destroy Unlimited Blade Works like he [[Anime/FateZero destroyed Rider's reality marble]]? This would have pretty much guarenteed guaranteed his victory.
** Gilgamesh doesn't respect Shiro enough to pull it out. The fact that he used it on Rider is a ''big'' deal in that regard. Besides, Ea was only realistically an option before they actually came to blows--it takes a while to unlock and actually pull out the thing. In the heat of the fight, Gilgamesh was just trying to keep up with Shiro's swings.
** Gilgamesh doesn't respect Shiro enough to pull it out. The fact that he used it on Rider is a ''big'' deal in that regard. Besides, Ea was only realistically an option before they actually came to blows--it takes a while to unlock and actually pull out the thing. In the heat of the fight, Gilgamesh was just trying to keep up with Shiro's swings.
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** When Shirou was fighting Archer, the color of the ground and sky changed around him until the change covered the entire Reality marble, indicating that he has gained control of it. When he later used it against Gil, it's clearly not a new Reality Marble as before since it already contained weapons. Shirou conquered UBW from his future self in a StableTimeLoop.
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[[folder:Destroying Unlimited Blade Works with Ea]]
* Why didn't Gil think of using Ea to destroy Unlimited Blade Works like he [[Anime/FateZero destroyed Rider's reality marble]]? This would have pretty much guarenteed his victory.
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* Why didn't Gil think of using Ea to destroy Unlimited Blade Works like he [[Anime/FateZero destroyed Rider's reality marble]]? This would have pretty much guarenteed his victory.
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I'm of the opinion that Shirou more than likely would have survived, I mean think you guys are forgetting avalon. Shirou himself mentions that he always healed pretty quickly and while gae bolg is incredibly potent avalon outmatches it. don't fuck with the fae.
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* Let's be honest. The whole reason he doesn't use it is because the writers gave a character an awesome one hit kill move and realized they wrote themselves into a hole. So instead of changing said ability they kept it but made every single excuse in the book to make it completely useless. The damn thing rewrites causality but hey if you have a good luck rank on your side then you'll be fine, nevermind that's basically the biggest cop out someone could possibly write for surviving such a thing. Then they gave Archer a shield to block its second form, decided to make Hercules' labors into extra lives (because lets face it the dude is severely broken even as a Berserker) and can't die the same way twice, Gil has every shield/disruptor to ever exist, Caster has a unlimited revive on her base, and Saber has luck. It's stupid, Saber should have died but then the story would be over so she didn't the end.
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** The reverse-causality aspect of Gae Bolg only works if he charges it with mana and invokes it aloud (the reason that doing so gave away his identity to Saber). He doesn't appear to do this against Kirei; he just jumps up and stabs him. It was simply a well-aimed blow.
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** If the two had the same voice actor it may have been a giveaway for people who didn't know the story. That said, Sugiyama can do deep voices well (Sasuke, Ishida, etc).
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** This is pretty much the point of HF. The game doesn't suggest that killing Sakura is "bad" in the first place. If you decide to kill Sakura then the game simply shows "End" (instead of "Bad End") and in the Dojo Taiga tells Illya not to complain since this is also a possible ending. It's just not the story that the HF route is trying to tell. There are multiple possible versions of Shiro. Ones in the previous two routes and the one in HF. There's no good or bad or "development" or whatever about it. They are just different perspectives shown for the player to digest and reflect upon.
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[[folder: Consuming servants]]
* One thing that bothers me is how exactly was Sakura able to consume servants when she's far away, in Shiro's house, and how can Zouken predict and manipulate her actions. This doesn't seem to make much sense. Illya was able to consume some servants because she's exactly where the servants died, e.g. in the cases of Rider in Fate route and Archer in HF. However, Sakura seemed to be simply staying at Shiro's place for the whole time. Even if you interpret it as it's the shadow instead of Sakura who did it, doesn't the "shadow" only appear when she's asleep and doesn't have strong self-consciousness? One explanation can be that since Zouken is staying in her heart the whole time, he can manipulate her. However, didn't he also admit to losing control of the shadow? This all seems quite sketchy to me.
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** Mordred was a magically-engineered homunculus clone of Arturia, created by Morgan using sperm cells stolen from Arturia when Merlin had used magic to temporarily endow her with male organs. Yes, it's just that simple!
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* So, Saber is King Arthur, right? Except she's really a [[SweetPollyOliver cross-dressing woman]] and [[SheIsTheKing favors masculine nouns, e.g. "king" instead of "queen (regnant)"]]. So, how does Arthur's BastardBastard son Sir Mordred also exist, as we see in one of Saber's memories? Was Morgan le Fay gender-flipped in the Franchise/{{Nasuverse}}, too?[[note]]Troper who posted this has only watched the 2006 anime due to NoExportForYou for the visual novel.[[/note]]
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* Would of it really have been so bad if Shirou and rIn killed Sakura? Sakura pretty much crosses the moral even horizon with all the people she killed and you can't make the excuse that she was possessed since she really did turn evil after a while. Shirou was acting extremely selfish by sugarcoating everything Sakura did and trying to protect her.
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* Would of it really have been so bad if Shirou and rIn Rin killed Sakura? Sakura pretty much crosses the moral even horizon with all the people she killed and you can't make the excuse that she was possessed since she really did turn evil after a while. Shirou was acting extremely selfish by sugarcoating everything Sakura did and trying to protect her.
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[[/folder: Summoning Angra Mainyu]]
* What I don't and still don't understand is why exactly the Eizenburns tried to summon him, unless I'm wrong and they just tried to summon a God and got stuck with him, but if not then its really, really stupid. Out of the Olympians, Egyptian, Hindu, Chinese, Japanese, Sumerian, celtic, Irish, Norse, and Aztec gods to name from the top of my head you go with the Zoroastrian God of evil? And even then history tells us that this was just someone everyone chose to embody the being and be a scapegoat for all of their shit. It's probably the stupidest excuse to "have an evil plot so we never have to use the Grail and have a clear winner in a war because Japan does that for some reason" excuse ever. It's like you tried to cheat on the math exam and rather than using the internet you decided to use an old test from the 1930's in South Africa from a student who failed and burned his test.
* What I don't and still don't understand is why exactly the Eizenburns tried to summon him, unless I'm wrong and they just tried to summon a God and got stuck with him, but if not then its really, really stupid. Out of the Olympians, Egyptian, Hindu, Chinese, Japanese, Sumerian, celtic, Irish, Norse, and Aztec gods to name from the top of my head you go with the Zoroastrian God of evil? And even then history tells us that this was just someone everyone chose to embody the being and be a scapegoat for all of their shit. It's probably the stupidest excuse to "have an evil plot so we never have to use the Grail and have a clear winner in a war because Japan does that for some reason" excuse ever. It's like you tried to cheat on the math exam and rather than using the internet you decided to use an old test from the 1930's in South Africa from a student who failed and burned his test.
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* What I don't and still don't understand is why exactly the Eizenburns tried to summon him, unless I'm wrong and they just tried to summon a God and got stuck with him, but if not then its really, really stupid. Out of the Olympians, Egyptian, Hindu, Chinese, Japanese, Sumerian,
** Probably because he'd be the only one that would actually qualify - most gods would likely qualify for the class closest to what their specialty is (i.e., Artemis would be summoned as an archer riding on Orion, and presumably, Apollo would follow suit; Odin would likely be summoned as a Lancer, seeing as how his most famous weapon is his spear, Gungir). Most of the really powerful gods that wouldn't qualify for one of the 7 main classes would likely qualify for the Ruler class (heck, if you go by the definition of a Ruler-class servant, ''Satan'' would qualify, simply because he'd want someone to have the grail to prove that God had failed, but wouldn't want it himself), so it was probably them choosing the Avenger class that limited their options.
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* I have to agree, what kind of a title is "stay night"? What does it signify? At least the other two titles - Unlimited Blade Works, Heaven's Feel - are the name of magical rituals that grant power.
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[[/folder]]
