This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Andrew Leprich: Excellent trope, but I'm not quite following on how this is an example of Gameplay and Story Segregation. Yes, if the gameplay forces you to do something that's shown to be impossible in the story, it would be a clear-cut example, but that doesn't seem to be the case for any of the examples thus far.
Kimiko Muffin: Right. Removing it now.
Sikon: We need a better name for this trope. "Violation of common sense" is just too generic, and covers many things, for example, Hollywood Science.
Isn't this Stupidity Is the Only Option? —Document N
Falcon Pain: Not precisely, although it could be. Stupidity Is the Only Option is when a Violation of Common Sense also violates common sense in the story, and is treated accordingly. If the player has to blow up the innocent guy's house to progress, it's VOCS. If the player has to blow up the innocent guy's house to progress, and then gets thrown in jail for being a murderer and arsonist, it's SITOO.
Bob: The article quote I added isn't actually an example of this, since it takes place in a cutscene outside the player's control, but I added it anyway, since it's a pretty good illustration of the concept.
There too many examples. The option to jump into lava or a stupid, yet non-interactive cutscene in an ego-shooter doesn't quite qualify as an example imho.
Falcon Pain: Based on the writeup on Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions, I'm convinced that this trope is too many tropes wrapped into one. The two main categories seem to be "scenes where the player has to do something illogical to succeed" and "scenes that allow the player to do something illogical for the hell of it". There's also a few Stupidity Is the Only Option examples thrown in. Should we narrow it down or split it, or can we change this trope's definition to be the catch-all "games let you do illogical things" supertrope?
Anomaly: Well, I think it's pretty clear that the Stupidity Is the Only Option-esque examples should just be kept to their own page. Besides that... it's my opinion that examples should be narrowed to just when the game requires you to violate common sense. There either is or could be a different trope entirely for scenes where the player just does illogical things without any particular in-story compulsion.
Anomaly: This trope used to have an example which mentioned a ninja doing something 'with a total, unthinking "this will totally work out for me" attitude' - I don't remember which ninja, or what he was doing, but it was funny and I wish I could remember what it was. Does anybody know what I'm talking about?
Doom Tay: Why isn't there a Troper Tales section? There's gotta be cases of people like us doing things we see as common sense only to be called out on it by others.
Prfnoff: Removed the I Wanna Be The Guy picture. It's funny, but doesn't fit this trope at all.
David TC: I think this should be at least three tropes, which I have no names for: a) the player has to do something illogical to succeed, like the 'mustache' inanity in the page quote. b) the player can try to do something stupid, like stab themselves or eat the fairy princess they rescued, and the game just lets them go ahead with that stupidity, and might even mock them for it. or c) players discover they can get totally irrational results from the game because hopping is faster than running, and start doing that. Note that (c) can overlap (a) when programmers realize (c) exist before release and put in an Easter Egg for people who know that, like the 'climb a half inch wide stairway' example. True (a) is only when programmers make you do something without realizing that doing it is idiotic and no sane person would actually attempt/think of it. It's Guide Dang It!, except a total logic failure instead of the other reasons you'd need a guide.
David TC: Or, stated simpler, (a) is the player being rational and the game being irrational, so the player can't possibly figure out what the game wants, (b) is the player being irrational and the game being rational, letting him do idiotic things and punishing him for them, and (c) the player doing irrational things because the game irrationally rewards him for those things, usually by accident. Three tropes, all need names. I suggest Violation of Common Sense for (c).
Kimiko Muffin: Actually, when I first made this article, my intention was for it to be closer to (a); in fact, I just came to the discussion page to remark that the examples ought to be split between A and B/C. Now we need names; I suggest "Video Game Stupidity Punishment" (to go along with Video Game Cruelty Punishment) for (b) and, uh, "Video Game Physics Abuse" for (c)? I suppose (a) falls under Guide Dang It!, or it could be a subtrope.
Chad M: Maybe A and C can be a trope, and B can be something like "Videogame Stupidity Potential" (to go with Videogame Caring/Cruelty Potential)? (I intentionally added the Death of Adventure Games quote because it seemed like the page description leaned most heavily toward (a))
Kimiko Muffin: Videogame Stupidity Potential works; I think A and C should be separated, though, because in A, the developers want you to behave irrationally in order to complete the game (or at least to gain some sort of bonus), but in C, the irrationality is neither intended nor expected. I suppose we can also have a fourth one, (d) where the player behaves irrationally (i.e. firing a grenade-launcher in your allies' home base), but the game ignores this (your allies can't get hit by friendly fire, even by explosions, and none of them even notices the explosion; I actually did this by accident in Half-Life 2 once) ... oh, and definitely getting rid of the "real world" examples, since this is entirely about video games and the player's rationally, though it could certainly do with a name-change to make it clearer. Actually, let's move this to the discussion-board ... there.
